All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > Is this collaboration?
7/23/2013 6:36 PM (edited)
It's a general question and I won't name any names, especially since one of my teams is still in the middle of recruiting.  But I wanted to get a sense from the rest of you about what you would do in this situation.

I have a history with a certain non-conference rival.  The former coach there poached two of my D3 recruits, 2 years in a row.  I didn't cry much about it (that's the game even though it nearly destroyed my program).  What the heck, it's competition I suppose. 

Anyway, said former coach left and a new coach came in.  Our pulldown ranges overlap each other so naturally there are some conflicts when we recruit.  This recruiting process, I started going after a certain PF pulldown I needed.  But looking closely, I decided that it would cost enough to get him to consider me that I would be left with very little cash to finish my recruiting class or defend against any other poachers.  So I backed off and let him go after only spending a few bucks on him.

Fast forward a day.  The rival coach has the PF considering him, but suddenly I get a drop down message from the player.  My normal response to this would be to ignore it - I don't really want the guy and he's still too expensive to recruit.

But then I was tempted to send the rival coach a heads up and tell him that his player had dropped and he might want to protect him.  Then I thought about it and decided "Nah, screw him" :)

The other coach hasn't done anything to me.  He's just another competitor as far as I'm concerned.  My only reason for even thinking about the heads up was to foster some good will where there was ill will with his predecessor.  And of course that depends on how he receives the warning.

What say you?  Is this a moot point and I'm too nice for my own good?  Too naive?  Or should I go for it and put the screws to that program even though the real rival has already left (I still have enough cash left to make a lot of trouble)?  Is the best course just to blow it off and move on, like I did?


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7/23/2013 3:47 PM
Posted by kcsundevil on 7/23/2013 3:39:00 PM (view original):
I stopped reading at "the former coach there poached two of my D3 recruits." There's no such thing as poaching.
If you bothered to read the rest of my post, you know that I didn't whine about it. I moved on, even though this other coach nearly destroyed my program.  I coped.

How about addressing the question I asked instead of piling on to the worn-out "no such thing as poaching" argument?  It's been done to death already.

7/23/2013 3:57 PM
You shouldn't do anything.
7/23/2013 4:04 PM
I'll address your question(s), sure, but kc isn't the only one who's gonna have that reaction.  You gotta admit, the old rivalry doesn't have anything to do with what you're asking, really.  So your questions are:
  1. Is this collaboration?
  2. What say you?
  3. Is this a moot point and I'm too nice for my own good?
  4. Too naive?
  5. Or should I go for it and put the screws to that program even though the real rival has already left (I still have enough cash left to make a lot of trouble)?
  6. Is the best course just to blow it off and move on, like I did?
Well then.... wow.  Okay.
  1. I think you mean collusion, and in a not-very-meaningful way it is.
  2. Jeez, I'm in the middle of it, be patient.
  3. Yes, and yes.  There's no reason to give information to an opponent who may not have it.
  4. Probably.
  5. Why the hell would you do that, especially if you "moved on"?
  6. I dunno, how badly do you want the player?
I don't understand your motivations.
7/23/2013 4:13 PM
I felt a moment of conflict when I started to send the coach a message, that's all.  I cancelled the message so obviously I decided not to do it.

My main question was how common it was.  Based on the very small sample size so far, it's not :)

Collusion would imply total sharing of info.  Collaboration is not quite as complete.  If you share your class notes in school, that's collaboration.  If you copy tests, that's collusion. 



7/23/2013 4:19 PM
I suspect WIS considers collusion and collaboration as being the same thing.   

A good rule of thumb: If your actions make recruiting any easier,  less expensive,  or gives another coach information he couldn't have gotten on his own, you probably shouldn't do it.  
7/23/2013 4:20 PM
Posted by alblack56 on 7/23/2013 4:19:00 PM (view original):
I suspect WIS considers collusion and collaboration as being the same thing.   

A good rule of thumb: If your actions make recruiting any easier,  less expensive,  or gives another coach information he couldn't have gotten on his own, you probably shouldn't do it.  
Thanks alblack.  That's the answer I was looking for.  Makes a lot of sense.

Glad I restrained myself, now :)  

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I think the other coach may have gotten one of those infamous "I'm having doubts" messages from the recruit, too.  That would be the official heads up.



7/23/2013 6:31 PM
Based on your initial post, I think it would be best to pass on sending the message and just recruit how you normally would.
7/23/2013 10:00 PM
I mostly just don't talk about recruits at all during recruiting. I don't think (from re-reading the Fair Play Guidelines) that informing him would be a violation, but who knows.

I had a not really similar in the details but similar issue myself just recently. In my 2nd recruiting season at a D1 rebuild I sent a few (4 I believe) scouting trips to a local D2 listed center to see how high his highs were. The same cycle I got the results he showed up considering me (it happens with the 4 evals sometimes...) and also considering a D3 school coached by a veteran coach. The D3 was one of those high A+ programs that must have pulled the kid down from the top of his D2 list. The kid was ok for low end D1, but will be a stud in D3. The same cycle I got his evals I got a few others centers' info as well and decided on a couple of more enticing prospects, but the D2 kid was on my list. Worse yet, the FSS when it came out sad I was clear favorite or whatever, so I had a big lead (not hard to imagine with a D1 scrub over a D3 I guess).  I was 99.9% sure I wasn't going to sign the D2 kid (I didn't - I got my other, primary targets right at 8 pm) but I feared that since the D3 coach now had 5 considering for 4 spots he was going to move on and sign his other targets and miss out on the stud. I really wanted to send a message saying just this, but I'm pretty sure that WOULD be some kind of violation, so I didn't. Signings just happened, so the D3 kid is now off my list of course since all my opening are filled. Turns out he is just considering the D3 now - he signed 3 of his 4 but has an ongoing battle for another player as well as that center. Frankly the center is far better than the other kid, so I hoe that now that he sees I've signed all my players and moved on he will sign the center. I'm not surprised it turned out this way - I mentioned it was a veteran coach - but it is nice that he won't miss out (unless he chooses to fight for the other kid instead - but that's not on me...) just because I scouted a potential backup a few times...
7/23/2013 11:09 PM
Dac, in a situation like that, did you consider warning the kid of a redshirt? Or would that have scared a D2 kid away from a D1 program?  (Asking because I don't know, not having played D1)


7/23/2013 11:36 PM
There is absolutely NO REASON to have any private communication with any other coach during the recruiting process.

If you want to communicate during recruiting, you should do so in the Coaches Corner or not at all.

Any communication between 2 coaches will provide private information that other people do not have, and it is collusive.

It might not be breaking the rules if there is no agreement made between coaches, but telling someone your intentions can provide advantage, and IMHO should be avoided. Let your recruiting actions (or lack of recruiting actions) .. or comments in the coaches corner speak to your intentions, that way everyone can see the information and it is not collusive.
7/24/2013 12:18 AM
Posted by ethan66 on 7/23/2013 11:09:00 PM (view original):
Dac, in a situation like that, did you consider warning the kid of a redshirt? Or would that have scared a D2 kid away from a D1 program?  (Asking because I don't know, not having played D1)


i didn't because a. i didn't think it would work and b. in the worst case I had him as a backup

7/24/2013 7:55 AM (edited)
I was on the other end of Dac's situation and would have commented here last night, but even though the guy was considering only me at the signing cycle because Dac fell off when he signed a full class, he wound up not signing with me until 2 a.m. (EDT). I didn't want to call too much attention to the guy, as he will be a strong D-III player.

I, too, considered sending a quick note to Dac just to say I thought it odd that a D-I and D-III team would be on the same guy, but quickly realized there would be no way to do that without seeming to seek information about his intentions. But I thought it was a pretty good bet he would sign a better player anyway. It looked liked I had 5 guys considering me for 4 spots, but the other guy it appeared I was in a battle for, I really wasn't. I recruited him a bit and offered on the first cycle vs. a sim just ot test the waters. He was a backup plan, then several other schools jumped on the same guy and for some reason, I stayed on his considering list. I was counting on Dac signing a full class and the guy would fall back to me, just as it happened.

Oh, and this guy was not a D-II pulldown for me. He was a straight up D-III recruit. I had him considering me after the first cycle and wound up spending just a bit over $700 total to sign him, and I have a B- prestige D-III team.

BTW, here is the guy:

Potential
  Current
Rating
Potential     Current
Rating
Potential
Athleticism 44 High   Perimeter 1 Low
Speed 9 Low   Ball Handling 15 High
Rebounding 61 High   Passing 14 Average
Defense 52 High   Stamina 57 High
Shot Blocking 64 Low   Durability 52 Average
Low-post 37 High   FT Shooting   Average

He would have been a marginal D-I player, but should be a helluva D-III talent eventually.
   
To get back on topic, Dac and I exchanging site mails on this guy would certainly be illegal for all the above mentioned reasons: we would be colluding to help our recruiting by getting information we should not have access to.

Actually, one of several reasons I am playing out my HD seasons as the only coach in my conference in a D-III world I had previously not been in is because I got fed up with all the cheating and collusion that was going on in another world I was in. I was in a D-II conf. where one of the coaches had a D-I team in the same world and during recruiting, he would miraculously be able to spot the top high potential D-II guys 1000 miles away from his school (and close to me). Just not possible to do that on a D-II budget season after season.  That was just one example--there are other obvious examples as I am sure many of you can attest to. It was just depressing and took the fun out of HD. Ironically, I am enjoying playing around with this D-III team and may wind up sticking around after my store of seasons are used up. It's a fun rebuild that will take another season or two to be good.
7/24/2013 10:58 AM
Interesting story, you guys, and points taken.

Axeme, I'd kill to find a guy like that with my D3 team.   Lately it seems like most of the ones I scout have low ATH potential.





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