All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > 1000 mile rule now driving distance?
7/25/2013 11:58 AM
Posted by abitaamber on 7/25/2013 11:46:00 AM (view original):
He has said in the past that one is his son's account.

I have been in conferences with both IDs, and I too have heard him say that on multiple occasions.
I would absolutely love to hear him explain this sentence below.  Did he accidentally refer to his son as himself?  I just don't buy that.

"WIS has had a change of heart and let me keep the DePaul team."
7/25/2013 11:59 AM
To be clear, I don't really care if aubietom has two teams or not.  It just ****** me off that honest coaches are punished over this stupid rule and all you have to do is offer a horribly weak story and they'll "have to take your word for it."
7/25/2013 12:54 PM
We're always open to alternative solutions as long as they address the various problems and don't create new ones.  Fire away.
7/25/2013 12:55 PM
ok my bad, i thought he was the same guy by similarity of names and posts, but i guess not.
7/25/2013 1:02 PM
Posted by killbatman on 7/25/2013 11:59:00 AM (view original):
To be clear, I don't really care if aubietom has two teams or not.  It just ****** me off that honest coaches are punished over this stupid rule and all you have to do is offer a horribly weak story and they'll "have to take your word for it."
i agree, its only the guys who are ABUNDANTLY clear from the start its the same guy who cant use that excuse. or who knows, maybe seble would have let me keep my teams if i told him this was my 1yr old son and coach_billyg was me. i wonder what the standard of compelling evidence is? the problem is its the honest guys who wont use this excuse, who don't hide the multiple teams, who aren't cheating, who are affected. anyone doing anything wrong is not going to be up front, most people wont even know both IDs are theirs, and even if they get caught, they probably have no problem lying about it. this rule basically guarantees the legitimate users get caught and cheaters get away with it.

i can understand where seble comes from, they want a hard rule to be able to show when someone actually does something wrong. they still shy away from enforcing anything when people clearly break the rules, unless they have a hard written rule they can point to. its hard to say without shadow of a doubt, a guy using 2 teams over 1000 miles to recruit against the same school is intentionally abusing the situation. i guess. in some people's minds, at least. its not hard to say look, you cant be within 1000 miles, and you are. i think thats the *only* defense of their system. the real problem is though that clearly the system accomplishes nothing and just ****** people off. when you have legitimate cheating, like when people use 2 schools to gang up on one - the site staff doesnt even take a stand and come down on that person hard. yet legitimate users lose teams over it. its just so ridiculous, its kind of amazing they have stuck with this stupid system as long as they have. i see a reasonable intention, but come on, how long can you deny the results call for a different system? 
7/25/2013 1:04 PM
I don't buy it.   While he may have claimed that it was a relative's account, and Seble had no choice but to believe him "unless there is clear evidence otherwise. "  the 2 posts I think are clear evidence.  

Tom  says"" WIS removed me initially saying DePaul was 'only' 945 miles from Texas Tech. I showed them my research that indicated it was 1150 miles away"".  where in that statement does it say, umm, we aren't the same person?? 

Then after being allowed to keep the team, he says "WIS has had a change of heart and let me keep the DePaul team"  where does that say a relative can keep the team??

again, I don't care if he has 2 teams within 1000 miles, but billyg had to bail because they enforced the rule, so it should apply here as well. 
7/25/2013 1:06 PM
Posted by abitaamber on 7/25/2013 11:46:00 AM (view original):
He has said in the past that one is his son's account.

I have been in conferences with both IDs, and I too have heard him say that on multiple occasions.
Even if this is his son's account - Dad is obvioulsy using it. Gotta feel for the vets who lost teams because of this rule when technically it doesn't exist lol - Everyone has family and friends - real or imaginary...  HD accounts for all!
7/25/2013 1:07 PM
Who are these users that have lost a team?  We request people move if they're in violation of the rule, but we've never forced anyone to quit the game.  If they choose to quit, I understand, but that's a choice by that person.

Trust me, we dislike dealing with these issues much more than any of you do.  All it does is suck our time away from more important things.  The easiest solution for us is remove the rule and say that anything goes, but I don't think most coaches would like that type of environment.



7/25/2013 1:10 PM
seriously though - get rid of the rule that's my suggestion. It has already done enough damage.
7/25/2013 1:18 PM
Posted by seble on 7/25/2013 1:07:00 PM (view original):
Who are these users that have lost a team?  We request people move if they're in violation of the rule, but we've never forced anyone to quit the game.  If they choose to quit, I understand, but that's a choice by that person.

Trust me, we dislike dealing with these issues much more than any of you do.  All it does is suck our time away from more important things.  The easiest solution for us is remove the rule and say that anything goes, but I don't think most coaches would like that type of environment.



well the obvious person here is billyg - you move to a different team and lose ALL the history you had with the former. Coaches become attached to certain teams - maybe you end up losing a team you won your first NT with. I'm sure you guys hate dealing with this but you did establish this rule and it's not effective as is- right down to the 1000 mile limit and especially if I can claim to be another person. As far as people quitting - you aren't forcing them to quit in the form of removing them from the site - but you are forcing them to make a decision based on the action in which I would believe most would rather quit than pay to play with these type of rules.   
7/25/2013 1:22 PM
It was probably 25-30 seasons ago when he had teams at American and Auburn I think, I asked him in a sitemail if he was both teams and he replied that he was. It was a long time ago and I didn't save the mail, because I didn't care that much - I was just curious.
7/25/2013 1:51 PM
jdno/jdno2 is another example of honest and transparent users being punished.  Pretty sure he was forced to drop/move a 2nd team on TWO different occasions when WIS changed the rule.  That might've made me quit the game right there, honestly.
7/25/2013 3:02 PM (edited)
iguana/oldwarrior had to move too. he, like me, was forced to move over a d2 and d1 situation - which is just absolutely ridiculous. same division, i can kind of see the argument - but even then - you still have to transition GRACEFULLY - i.e. seble you cant simply make a post stating the rule has changed and give NO direction or guidance to people who are suddenly put in violation. he dropped both teams. i dropped one and then all teams. there are real ramifications, saying, "we didnt make people give up teams" is a bullshit cop out, and its comments like that that make you look bad.

seble i think what you fail to realize here is that the problem is not so much the rule as how you have handled the situation. you put a lot more coaches that you realized in violation when you changed the rule to no teams within 1000 miles, even in different divisions. before that change, everyone except you has the perception teams were allowed in the same division if they werent really overlapping, and were allowed in different divisions no matter what. right or wrong - if everyone thinks something different than the rule - that is a communication failure on your end.

the real problem comes when you change this rule, ensure people that you arent going aroudn enforcing it so its probably not a problem, and then users make complaints based on no bad behavior whatsoever, and honest coaches get blindsided. if you made the rule and said ok i realize this is a tough situation, ill give people 8 seasons to transition before we enforce it, helping with resume if needed, or whatever - provided SOME direction - that would have went over 10 times better. but that is not at all what happened. the rule wasn't even clear. in case its not clear, posting to conf chats every couple years "read the updated rules" IS NOT clear, quality communication. the communication break down here is the principle problem. i understand you didnt realize you put so many coaches in violation (more than 50, without even thinking about it). but at some point you had to realize. so why not DO something about it? and why not ask in the first place? lots of coaches here are up front and honest and would have let you know you were placing them in violation right then in there, putting faith in you to handle the situation gracefully. the key word - gracefully. you just want to make a rule that is hard so you have something to stand behind and then ignore the problem and hope it goes away. i hate to break it to you, if it hasnt become incredibly obvious by now - thats simply not going to happen. you failed to step up to the plate in the first place - fine - we all make mistakes. i dont even have any teams anymore because i was so fed up with the bullshit way you handled it. but there are other coaches left in violation, great coaches, the kind of guys you would go to for user interviews, who are model members of the community. step up to the plate now - come up with a plan, preferably with some input from users - to establish a rule (the current rule possibly, but not necessarily) - and to GRACEFULLY transition people who find themselves in violation. you have to remember these coaches paid lots of money and more important, invested lots of time, into their teams. then you change the rule and say nothing about he change or how to deal with it. what do you think is going to happen?? what do you expect these coaches to do? when expectations are not aligned, when those expectations clash, there is fallout - thats basic and obvious. you have to take that issue on head-on. even coaches who picked up teams AFTER the rule changed should be dealt with gracefully. after all, the established understanding on the forums was that you didnt really care and wouldnt enforce this rule, and you directly helped create that perception. people in violation picked up new teams still in violation without intending to do something wrong. the rule was a joke and you, not anyone else, made it that way.

so you really should say ok look we are setting a date - when you determine exactly what rule you want - any teams picked up those coaches will face ramifications X Y and Z. make it ABSOLUTELY clear what the new rule is to everyone. you need to also have a clear system to transition good coaches who find themselves in violation. the honest guys will come forward and comply, unless maybe they had both teams for 5 years and would rather quit the game than lose those teams - maybe you let those guys keep *those teams only*, grandfather them in - but anyone with teams picked up since the rule change, they have to change things (something like that - your choice - but you need to do SOMETHING). the scheme isnt as important as there IS a scheme and you communicate it clearly, follow up, and give a transition plan. maybe coaches have 12 months to transition out, so they can do it gracefully. you made me drop my most enjoyed team going into our best season, after spending over a year building a BCS bottom feeder into an A+ top of the line program. finally, we recruit 2 A+ classes, have hands-down the best team in the country - and im supposed to leave then? with 2 weeks warning? when i had picked up that team in compliance with the rules at the time? no, thats not acceptable. its not graceful. you simply have to do better, and i am quite confident if you put the effort to gracefully transition people now, you will get all that time back later - with considerably less stress involved for ALL parties involved.

so, you asked for it, here is your plan to a successful transition:
1) devise a set of rules to address this situation, preferably through interaction with the community
2) set a date where teams picked up before then will be dealt with gracefully, afterwards, you lose that benefit
3) CLEARLY communicate what those rules and dates are
4) devise a GRACEFUL transition plan for coaches who find themselves in violation before said date, preferably through interaction with the community
5) assist in the execution of said transition plan
6) now anyone else found in violation has no excuse, so deal with them as you see fit. i cant promise it, because its not under my control, but i probably know this HD community a lot better than you, and i have complete confidence if you really do what you should here to handle the situation responsibly, then people found in violation after you go through the above WILL NOT have the benefit of the backing of the forum community, and you wont be looked down upon for handling things so poorly

this doesnt have to be that difficult or time consuming. clear communication, a fair transition plan, you can spend a hell of a lot less time working on that than you have dealing with all these issues. you will always get a few guys who will complain no matter what you do - who just dont like the rule or only care about their own situation. but it seems most people, regardless of stance on the rule, do not approve of the way you have handled the situation. clearly its not everybody - but i think most people here are mature enough to accept a rule they dont like, if you make that rule responsibly - which is not the case here.
7/25/2013 2:45 PM
Posted by seble on 7/25/2013 1:07:00 PM (view original):
Who are these users that have lost a team?  We request people move if they're in violation of the rule, but we've never forced anyone to quit the game.  If they choose to quit, I understand, but that's a choice by that person.

Trust me, we dislike dealing with these issues much more than any of you do.  All it does is suck our time away from more important things.  The easiest solution for us is remove the rule and say that anything goes, but I don't think most coaches would like that type of environment.



i also doubt you dislike dealing with this more than i do. 5 years, thousands of hours... all the bullshit of failed releases and poor testing never chased me away. all the fatigue and cyclical interest issues never chased me away. i was actually at one of the highest points of enjoyment in this game in many years, at the time you made me leave - clearly evident if you chart my success in the game over time, which is just basically a function of how much i enjoy it. south carolina was doing great, becoming a pillar of the d1 tark world. d2 GLV remained a model lower division conference as it had for the last 50 seasons, arguably the greatest lower division conference of all time (not coincidentally, your chasing me away caused half the users to drop their teams there within a month). things were going well - the terrible handling of the situation put me over the edge, from not even being near the edge. i realize this sucks for you, but its your job, you have to deal with it. long time customers who have made meaningful contributions to the game and the community just suddenly getting treated like crap, thats not our job, and we dont have to deal with it. that was never the deal. you know what you got into - we didnt - its just totally different. i do appreciate that this sucks for you but to a large extent, you brought it upon yourself. we didnt. totally different - so while i have some sympathy for you, it really doesnt get you off the hook for your actions. not at all. sorry, just the way it is.

if its really so bad for you, then man up and do something about it! 
7/25/2013 3:12 PM
I don't want to rehash the very lengthy discussion of the rule itself.  I posted here just to clarify the circumstances of this particular case.
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