Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 6:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmax on 2/15/2014 5:23:00 PM (view original):
I may be slow, but I dont know what I would do to exploit the info if I knew the exact depth chart settings of an opponent in most any situation.  There are a handful of times when I would have wished that I knew more about depth chart sequences when trying - in vain - to set up specific matchups.....I dont see meaningful competitive value.  Unless of course some user has thought of something new.

Interesting, because I would love to know in order to exploit subs, especially ones that play multiple positions or that do markedly different things than the starter.

He has been actually trying to help you, and you consistently bite at his extended hand. Unless I am missing something, you have played less than a season of HD. There are people in this thread that have shown you way more respect than you are reciprocating. Believe me, they are not trying to find a way to exploit your armor (they don't need it to be beat you quite honestly). Have some faith in human kind and let them help you. It's like Jerry Maguire to Rod Tidwell here - "help me help you!"

And all I said was that it's interesting that he doesn't see value in knowing an opponent's sub pattern, because I do think it would be good information to have.

I'm not sure what you thought you read.

To answer the question asked earlier, I played minutes tonight and didn't notice any major problems, though I wouldn't say it worked like I was led to believe it would.

Was a little weird that the sim jumped straight to my 4th team guy like 5 minutes into the game, though.

Also we had a 7 minute stretch where we scored 4 points, so another brownout, but were ahead enough when it happened and the defense was good enough to keep the lead. Then the game went crazy in the last 5ish minutes. Was 38-35 with 10 to go, ended up 62-55. Not sure if they removed the lids from the baskets or what.

Not sure there's much earth-shattering here...overall a game we should be winning, and did. But I was asked to provide info.

No offense taken by me from etta's reply.

I dont see value in knowing what is on the depth chart because I dont think it translates into actionable info in most cases.  Even if I saw the opponents depth chart, lots of stuff would affect exactly when his subs would come in.  I dont know how to make my subs come in at the time that his come into the game.  If someone does, please share.

I do look at pbp and at team stats to get a sense of who is getting minutes in which position - which can be relevant for game planning
. 
If I could match up specific guys with specific subs, I would try hard to do so at times.  Just dont see a way to do that.

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/16/2014 2:32:00 AM (view original):
To answer the question asked earlier, I played minutes tonight and didn't notice any major problems, though I wouldn't say it worked like I was led to believe it would.

Was a little weird that the sim jumped straight to my 4th team guy like 5 minutes into the game, though.

Also we had a 7 minute stretch where we scored 4 points, so another brownout, but were ahead enough when it happened and the defense was good enough to keep the lead. Then the game went crazy in the last 5ish minutes. Was 38-35 with 10 to go, ended up 62-55. Not sure if they removed the lids from the baskets or what.

Not sure there's much earth-shattering here...overall a game we should be winning, and did. But I was asked to provide info.

I've noticed that too with minutes, a lot of substitutes. Sometimes for me at least I'll end up having one sub every time there's a dead ball. So if I can afford it sometimes I'll put a player who get's a lot of minutes on the bench because it helps to vary the substitution pattern at least a little.

Actually, as someone who uses minutes on a pretty regular basis, I think both of them work "right" - I know you don't like the way minutes can (in a very narrow and specific set of circumstances) lead to a fatigued player getting court time. I even agree that is something that could be addressed. What I disagree on is that it should be addressed by a change to the existing minutes setup. To have what you seem to want, I think the only way is to have a 3rd option created (good luck with that) that combines minutes and fatigue.

What would be very bad (and, given the amount of agreement/support you've gotten thus far from the most of the forum-using community base - very unlikely) would be a change to the existing minutes system. As is, if I set a starter to 24-28 minutes, I can be almost certain he'll get his 24 minutes. I wouldn't want to lose that level of "simplistic" control.

I've said what I think would work which is easy -- setting minutes to apply on a per-half basis, not per game.

But anyway, probably the fact that the sim jumped to my 4th team guy so early in the game would be the thing I would find most odd from last night. What I would find the most annoying would be the scoring drought that almost gave away the lead.

Yeah. Because long scoring droughts NEVER happen in real life.

http://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-basketball/2014/02/33445/scoring-drought-costs-buckeyes-loss-michigan
http://www.nola.com/uno/index.ssf/2014/01/early_scoring_drought_dooms_un.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Cal-s-brutal-five-point-half-among-the-worst-of-?urn=ncaab-289639
http://m.journalstar.com/sports/huskers/mens-basketball/scoring-drought-plagues-husker-men-in-loss-to-purdue/article_745ec874-77c9-5b9a-a175-3d48ec7bdf03.html?mobile_touch=true
http://www.etbusports.com/wbasketball/news/2013-14/849/long-scoring-drought-helps-utd-pull-away-over-etbu/
http://m.newsok.com/oklahoma-mens-basketball-sooners-overcome-scoring-droughts-to-beat-warhawks/article/3727823
http://www.etbusports.com/mbasketball/news/2013-14/839/first-half-scoring-drought-does-in-etbu/

That is just on the first page of the search.

Etta, I looked at your PBP from your last game. From your previous comments I infer that Thomas Morris is the 4th stringer in question, coming in at SG 4:22 into the game. Based on the PBP I'm also guessing your depth chart is something like:

SG - Houseknecht, Doe, Caudillo, Morris
SF - Lewis, Doe, Caudillo, Bellamy
PF - Moore, Bellamy (didn't note past Bellamy)

After a couple of minutes the game puts five subs in, putting in Doe at SG, Caudillo at SF and Bellamy at PF. So in this situation your third SG is in the game at another position.

You must have Caudillo targeted to play only a few minutes a game, so at the 4:22 mark the sim engine probably determined that he had enough minutes for the time being (I doubt it was fatigue-based given how long he was in and his high stamina rating). At that point, I guess Lewis wasn't ready to re-enter the game, so next on your SF depth chart would be Doe. In order to slide Doe to the 3, Morris had to enter as the SG. (Houseknecht probably wasn't fully rested). I may not have all of the details exactly right, but the scenario I have outlined above would be a specific instance of why the game engine might go to your 4th stringer so quickly. I agree with others that the sub model sometimes produces strange results - my explanation should not be interpreted as an endorsement of said process. However, with experience any coach can tweak their rosters so that this would happen less often (though probably not eliminate it entirely).

I also noticed that Morris came in again at SG very early into the second half, which I found more odd since there were people above him in the chart that were rested. I'm guessing that might have been a case where Morris may not have hit his minutes total in the first half and the game engine was trying to get some time for him early in the second to make up the deficit.

Using the fatigue system, you'd set one or more of your starters to Getting Tired* to stagger your substitutions in a more tailored way.  Setting one or more subs to Getting Tired allows you to tweak further and usually doesn't  cause trouble because your starter is coming back in as soon as he's rested enough.  Using the fatigue system also guarantees that the next player on the depth chart comes into the game, assuming his fatigue level is equal to or better than your setting for him.

*I believe there's not a dramatic performance difference between Fairly Fresh and Getting Tired, especially when dealing with a high-stamina player.  Some folks disagree.

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/16/2014 12:30:00 PM (view original):
I've said what I think would work which is easy -- setting minutes to apply on a per-half basis, not per game.

But anyway, probably the fact that the sim jumped to my 4th team guy so early in the game would be the thing I would find most odd from last night. What I would find the most annoying would be the scoring drought that almost gave away the lead.

As a third option maybe. As a replacement or change to target minutes, no- because it can actually reduce the amount of control you have.

Posted by arssanguinus on 2/16/2014 1:10:00 PM (view original):
Yeah. Because long scoring droughts NEVER happen in real life.

http://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-basketball/2014/02/33445/scoring-drought-costs-buckeyes-loss-michigan
http://www.nola.com/uno/index.ssf/2014/01/early_scoring_drought_dooms_un.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Cal-s-brutal-five-point-half-among-the-worst-of-?urn=ncaab-289639
http://m.journalstar.com/sports/huskers/mens-basketball/scoring-drought-plagues-husker-men-in-loss-to-purdue/article_745ec874-77c9-5b9a-a175-3d48ec7bdf03.html?mobile_touch=true
http://www.etbusports.com/wbasketball/news/2013-14/849/long-scoring-drought-helps-utd-pull-away-over-etbu/
http://m.newsok.com/oklahoma-mens-basketball-sooners-overcome-scoring-droughts-to-beat-warhawks/article/3727823
http://www.etbusports.com/mbasketball/news/2013-14/839/first-half-scoring-drought-does-in-etbu/

That is just on the first page of the search.

I've had one pretty much every game in the last dozen. But whatever, keep being unhelpful.

Cue the people crying "oh he's just trying to help and you're being such a big, brutish meanie!"

This is really more on topic for the other thread though anyway.

Posted by dabighonu on 2/16/2014 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Etta, I looked at your PBP from your last game. From your previous comments I infer that Thomas Morris is the 4th stringer in question, coming in at SG 4:22 into the game. Based on the PBP I'm also guessing your depth chart is something like:

SG - Houseknecht, Doe, Caudillo, Morris
SF - Lewis, Doe, Caudillo, Bellamy
PF - Moore, Bellamy (didn't note past Bellamy)

After a couple of minutes the game puts five subs in, putting in Doe at SG, Caudillo at SF and Bellamy at PF. So in this situation your third SG is in the game at another position.

You must have Caudillo targeted to play only a few minutes a game, so at the 4:22 mark the sim engine probably determined that he had enough minutes for the time being (I doubt it was fatigue-based given how long he was in and his high stamina rating). At that point, I guess Lewis wasn't ready to re-enter the game, so next on your SF depth chart would be Doe. In order to slide Doe to the 3, Morris had to enter as the SG. (Houseknecht probably wasn't fully rested). I may not have all of the details exactly right, but the scenario I have outlined above would be a specific instance of why the game engine might go to your 4th stringer so quickly. I agree with others that the sub model sometimes produces strange results - my explanation should not be interpreted as an endorsement of said process. However, with experience any coach can tweak their rosters so that this would happen less often (though probably not eliminate it entirely).

I also noticed that Morris came in again at SG very early into the second half, which I found more odd since there were people above him in the chart that were rested. I'm guessing that might have been a case where Morris may not have hit his minutes total in the first half and the game engine was trying to get some time for him early in the second to make up the deficit.

Not quite right on the depth chart, but close enough for discussion. Thank you for taking the time to learn a bit about the situation before you posted. 

Caudillo was actually 4th team at SG and SF, hence my surprise when he came in so early. So flop he and Morris at SG. You're right about him not being slated to play very many minutes. But you get the idea when based on what you thought about my depth chart, Morris coming back was the surprising one. 

I guess I get how it happened, just not why the computer did it that way. It just seems very poor logic compared to more straightforward alternatives. But I don't plan on doing it that way the next game anyway.

Subbing in 5 guys at a time is kind of crazy anyway unless that's your system or you're just ****** at your whole starting lineup (Dean Smith's "blue" team). 

Posted by llamanunts on 2/16/2014 1:51:00 PM (view original):
Using the fatigue system, you'd set one or more of your starters to Getting Tired* to stagger your substitutions in a more tailored way.  Setting one or more subs to Getting Tired allows you to tweak further and usually doesn't  cause trouble because your starter is coming back in as soon as he's rested enough.  Using the fatigue system also guarantees that the next player on the depth chart comes into the game, assuming his fatigue level is equal to or better than your setting for him.

*I believe there's not a dramatic performance difference between Fairly Fresh and Getting Tired, especially when dealing with a high-stamina player.  Some folks disagree.

I'm not seeing any way to get a high-stamina starter out with less than 30 mpg on fatigue system.

I had Morris on fairly fresh and he played 31 last time I tried it. 

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/16/2014 3:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by arssanguinus on 2/16/2014 1:10:00 PM (view original):
Yeah. Because long scoring droughts NEVER happen in real life.

http://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-basketball/2014/02/33445/scoring-drought-costs-buckeyes-loss-michigan
http://www.nola.com/uno/index.ssf/2014/01/early_scoring_drought_dooms_un.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Cal-s-brutal-five-point-half-among-the-worst-of-?urn=ncaab-289639
http://m.journalstar.com/sports/huskers/mens-basketball/scoring-drought-plagues-husker-men-in-loss-to-purdue/article_745ec874-77c9-5b9a-a175-3d48ec7bdf03.html?mobile_touch=true
http://www.etbusports.com/wbasketball/news/2013-14/849/long-scoring-drought-helps-utd-pull-away-over-etbu/
http://m.newsok.com/oklahoma-mens-basketball-sooners-overcome-scoring-droughts-to-beat-warhawks/article/3727823
http://www.etbusports.com/mbasketball/news/2013-14/839/first-half-scoring-drought-does-in-etbu/

That is just on the first page of the search.

I've had one pretty much every game in the last dozen. But whatever, keep being unhelpful.

Cue the people crying "oh he's just trying to help and you're being such a big, brutish meanie!"

This is really more on topic for the other thread though anyway.

You did mention it here; and the reason you see extended droughts is because your team isn't all that offensively potent. In subsequent seasons, as the team got better, you would expect to see less of them.