So how often would "you're my backup option" guy (dropdowns?) accept your HVs at various stages in the recruiting process? I would imagine it is a lot less likely early on than it is as it gets closer to signings. Or, is it the same acceptance rate, but it's just the effort required to get him to consider you varies depending on the timing in the recruiting process?

Posted by noleaniml on 9/9/2014 9:14:00 AM (view original):
So how often would "you're my backup option" guy (dropdowns?) accept your HVs at various stages in the recruiting process? I would imagine it is a lot less likely early on than it is as it gets closer to signings. Or, is it the same acceptance rate, but it's just the effort required to get him to consider you varies depending on the timing in the recruiting process?

for backups, the chance of HVs and CVs being accepted is 0%. for non backups, it depends on the situation, but they are usually accepted. is your original question a general one, or only in reference to dropdowns/pulldowns?

Posted by clouseb on 9/8/2014 10:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/8/2014 9:25:00 PM (view original):
wait... mid major? ok, i see now... yeah, you only want to use scouting trips at d1 to get information, if a high potential is the high/high or low/high kind. that is extremely useful information. but for raw considering credit, scouting trips are pretty inefficient (in most cases, and in the cases when they aren't that efficient, they are never optimal). guys who aren't considering you, who aren't backups, often will reject a good 30% of your HVs or CVs, so just send small batches (if using HVs) and send extras, that way the randomness won't hit you so hard. it only takes a few k to get considered in d1, for non-dropdown players.

any player who is not a dropdown, who is not considering someone else, will always accept your promised start, to the best of my knowledge. using a start + scholarship is a GREAT way to put a feeler out on a player who you aren't sure you are going to target heavily (someone who might be above your head, who you might not be in position to fight for, or someone who might be a backup). just be super careful not to forget to take the starts off... i've had many teams laid to waste by forgetting to take off promised starts for my entire recruiting class :O keep in mind players who are "high relative to your school" won't consider you just on a start + scholarship. its worth learning who will and who will not consider you for $10 and $110.

Would you mind expanding a little on this $110 strategy?  How much recruiting effort is required to counter the negative value from pulling a promised start?

you put a scholarship and start on in the first cycle. then, at a later time, you put effort in, that it would take to get considered without a start. at the following cycle, you pull the promises with a redshirt + no redshirt (in the same cycle). you can combine the last two but there is a relatively small but still significant risk the player will reject your visit and stop considering you. also, try not to do this in the 5-8 cycle day of signings - i've had guys wait 1 extra cycle to sign as a result. my rationale is they stop considering you because you took off the promise, and then start again, but then you haven't been considered for the last 1 cycle straight, so they don't sign. i haven't seen this since seble doinked around with promises, but i also avoid the 5-8 cycle and haven't really put it to the test.

the net product of start + redshirt + no redshirt is 0, in terms of considering credit. so, you just need enough effort to get the guy to consider you like you never had put the start in. in absolute terms, a start is worth a little less than 2 HVs. for that reason, in d1, a start + scholarship is not enough to get all players to consider you. it depends where the player stands relative to your school, and its worth getting a feel for that. an a+ school can get anyone with 110, but an a school can't, and it trickles down... at like a-, you can get 3 stars but not 4, but maybe some 4s and not all 3s, im not really sure exactly. in short, if a guy is at the high range BY RANKING (skill is irrelevant) of what you can get, it won't work, unless you are a+, but if a guy is about where schools your level normally sign, it generally does work. the cost of the start + redshirt + no redshirt is really that you can't do a redshirt after the season starts, you lose the "free redshirt" option. and 30 dollars, if that matters :) the benefit is that if you use it on a guy who you won't end up signing, it ends up costing you very, very little. this can be pretty damn valuable especially for, well, anybody! i use it personally in every possible situation. even if i am going to dump like 10k into a guy in d1, i use the start, and take it off later. just don't forget to take it off eventually. if you see those people who get like, 10-20 people considering them early, don't think they spent a lot - most likely they are in to each of those players for 110 dollars. and actually, ill often *just* use a start promise for low end backup option type of players - that way i don't have to pull the scholarship later (and save 100 dollars, i guess). so they might only be in to some of those 10-20 players for 10 bucks... 

example usage:
cycle 1 - start + scholarship
11pm cycle day of signings - 2 HVs
2pm cycle day of signings - redshirt + no redshirt

by splitting the last 2 cycles, the HVs can't get rejected - players considering you alone cannot reject HVs or CVs. that is the safe route. you can combine the last two, just be aware it might bite you in the ***, and also, avoid the 5-8 cycle for pulling promises. i used to pull my promises over night when most people were sleeping, but once i figured out to split those last 2, its totally not necessary, it works 100% as long as the effort in step 2 is sufficient to be considered (and 2 HVs has to be, its more powerful than a start). 

Posted by the0nlyis on 9/8/2014 9:41:00 PM (view original):
just jumping in here, is this what you guys are talking about for start/scholly method:

you send guaranteed start+ scholly offer and next cycle you withdraw guaranteed start? does this not have negative effects or is this where you counter with hv/cv to keep interest.

not exactly... let me know if my above post clears this up, or if you still have any questions!

gillispie, I am more specifically worried about dropdowns. However, this discussion has opened my eyes to many things I didn't know about recruiting on a general level, as well. Either way, my original scenario still mystifies me some- the part about other mid-majors showing up on dropdowns before I thought it would economically beneficial using STs (were generally talking about recruits at a pretty good distance here- maybe 500+ miles). I guess it's possible that they are just dumping that much money into a guy just to get on his considering list, but it seems like there was a  way to get considered that I was missing.

To boil that all down, I guess what I am asking is for your (and others) opinions on how you would get a dropdown at a significant distance to consider you? It seems like that using STs exclusively is not the most efficient option, but I have yet to figure out what is considering the new information I have learned in this thread. Espeically now that you are saying that a dropdown will not accept a HV/CV.

Posted by noleaniml on 9/9/2014 10:00:00 PM (view original):
gillispie, I am more specifically worried about dropdowns. However, this discussion has opened my eyes to many things I didn't know about recruiting on a general level, as well. Either way, my original scenario still mystifies me some- the part about other mid-majors showing up on dropdowns before I thought it would economically beneficial using STs (were generally talking about recruits at a pretty good distance here- maybe 500+ miles). I guess it's possible that they are just dumping that much money into a guy just to get on his considering list, but it seems like there was a  way to get considered that I was missing.

To boil that all down, I guess what I am asking is for your (and others) opinions on how you would get a dropdown at a significant distance to consider you? It seems like that using STs exclusively is not the most efficient option, but I have yet to figure out what is considering the new information I have learned in this thread. Espeically now that you are saying that a dropdown will not accept a HV/CV.

in d1, for pulldowns, SVs are about your only option. you can use a small amount of calls/letters, but they are only more efficient than scouting trips at distance, and you can't get much effort from calls/letters before they max, not in the scheme of what it takes to pull a player down in d1. were those mid majors possibly within 70 miles, or higher prestige than you? in either case, that would explain it. if not, maybe they pulled the player down - but pull downs are decently rare in d1, its just so costly, and rarely can you actually sign such a player, even if you pull them down - usually a bigger school will have interest.

gillispie, I guess these coaches are just dumping that much money into them. It seemed pretty risky to me, which I was I thought maybe I was missing something about how to get those types of recruits to consider you. Thanks for your help.

Ok, gilliispie I have a question if you don't mind.  I am at a D3 school and the more I start to learn about this game the more I realize I have no clue .  Anyway, with the $110 trick... Would you consider this pretty irrelevant at D3 for pulldowns?  Because once I pull someone down I can do HV.  Or, once I pull them down should I do the $110 trick?

Posted by jaymc2007 on 9/10/2014 4:55:00 PM (view original):
Ok, gilliispie I have a question if you don't mind.  I am at a D3 school and the more I start to learn about this game the more I realize I have no clue .  Anyway, with the $110 trick... Would you consider this pretty irrelevant at D3 for pulldowns?  Because once I pull someone down I can do HV.  Or, once I pull them down should I do the $110 trick?

once you pull them down, aren't they considering you anyway? or do you mean once they drop to you, when all you've done is the 10 dollar phone call? if you are talking about the former, if they are already considering you, no reason to do the start. if you are talking about the later - then you didn't really pull them down - pulling them down suggests you took direct action to make them drop early (they will still show a division up even though they are considering you, thats how you know for sure you pulled them down). but nomenclature aside, once a guy drops to you, and isn't considering anyone, you can do the start + scholarship. if they are considering someone else already, they will reject the start.

hope that helps, let me know if that doesn't fully answer your question...

No it does, I am sorry I wasn't very clear about my question.  I know how to pulldown, but I have head (never has happened to me) that every once in a blue moon you can pull somebody down but they are not quite ready to consider you.  But, again, that has never happened to me.

So, just to clear this up.  With the start + redshirt + no redshirt, you do lose the ability to redshirt that player his FIRST year, correct?

if you don't do any follow up effort in recruiting and then inform him of R/S a second time, then yes, he won't take it his first year

Bump (So I can use it for recruiting! )

Posted by jdno on 9/20/2014 8:18:00 AM (view original):
if you don't do any follow up effort in recruiting and then inform him of R/S a second time, then yes, he won't take it his first year

So you still can redshirt just as long as you inform?

correct