I've got a friend in the game who claims that he battled for a recruit and he was the only player on the recruit during the first signing cycle. Why did the player not sign with his team? I always thought it was best to get the opposing school completely off the player's considering list - but his story suggests otherwise as it gave another school with higher prestige the time to come in a grab the player. The other opposing school was also able to get back on the considering list at the 11 pm cycle. Am I wrong or shouldn't the recruit have signed with his school at 8pm if he was the only school in the mix? Scholly was given and everything - not user error here to my knowledge. Thanks for any answers.

Posted by rednation58 on 11/17/2014 3:12:00 PM (view original):
I've got a friend in the game who claims that he battled for a recruit and he was the only player on the recruit during the first signing cycle. Why did the player not sign with his team? I always thought it was best to get the opposing school completely off the player's considering list - but his story suggests otherwise as it gave another school with higher prestige the time to come in a grab the player. The other opposing school was also able to get back on the considering list at the 11 pm cycle. Am I wrong or shouldn't the recruit have signed with his school at 8pm if he was the only school in the mix? Scholly was given and everything - not user error here to my knowledge. Thanks for any answers.

Most of the time, you have to be the only school the recruit is considering for an entire cycle prior in order for the recruit to sign (assuming signings have begun) if it is not the final cycle (at which I would think WIS would assign the recruit to the school with the most effort at the end).  I think I've heard rumors that there are exceptions if you overwhelm the required effort for the recruit to sign (think maybe tripling or quadrupling your effort in a close fight for instance).

Otherwise, If the recruit was considering multiple schools (or no schools), then the recruit won't sign immediately on the next cycle even though he would only be considering one school (this allows the other school one cycle to respond to getting onto the recruit's consideration list again).

[Edit] I assume what you're saying is that the cycle prior to signings, he was considering both schools and just prior to signings beginning, he pushed in enough effort to be the only school the recruit is considering?  Then yes, he won't sign with his school immediately.

He would have to do it the cycle prior which would of been push the effort in prior to the 5pm cycle, only be considered the full 5 to 8 pm cycle and if the other school didn't get back on, he would of signed at 8:01pm.

budd's explanation is close, but I think the critical part that's missing is who was ahead of the battle before school A became the only school to be considered.  I'm willing to bet that he was behind in the battle to school B but then swamped him with effort going into signings and showed up at signings as the only one being considered.  The kid didn't sign because A wasn't already ahead of B.  If A was ahead of B and then swamped him with effort, then he'd have signed.  In this case, again, I bet this wasn't the case.  So the "system" gives B one cycle to extend the battle even though signings had just started and technically the kid was only considering A.

Posted by jdno on 11/17/2014 4:29:00 PM (view original):
budd's explanation is close, but I think the critical part that's missing is who was ahead of the battle before school A became the only school to be considered.  I'm willing to bet that he was behind in the battle to school B but then swamped him with effort going into signings and showed up at signings as the only one being considered.  The kid didn't sign because A wasn't already ahead of B.  If A was ahead of B and then swamped him with effort, then he'd have signed.  In this case, again, I bet this wasn't the case.  So the "system" gives B one cycle to extend the battle even though signings had just started and technically the kid was only considering A.

Are you sure this is the case?  Interesting... because I can see where in a low effort fight where say I was just trying to stay on until after signings (i.e. making sure all my recruits sign) and I'm trailing, that its possible for the other school to put in enough effort to push me off at signings and sign immediately?

If this is true, then its a disadvantage to show up prior to the signing cycle and its better to poach actually going at the signing cycle than it would be earlier...

[Edit] I'm almost certain in instances where I've been poached at signings but end up still leading and pushed in enough effort in that next cycle to push off the attacker but did NOT have the recruit sign in that next cycle (I was the only school being considered the subsequent cycle I pushed in the effort).

[Another Edit] I did mention the exception case where you completely overwhelm your opponent so perhaps that's what your thinking off (where you end up tripling or higher the amount of effort of your opponent).

Maybe the OP's friend can confirm whether he was trailing or not before making that big push into signings.

I can't recall ever personally being in the lead after signings and pushing another school off of a kid and that kid not signing with me.  YMMV.

Not sure what your last edit is trying to convey, although in this case team A clearly swamped the effort of team B going into signings, but again, if he was trailing, then it doesn't matter, the kid won't sign b/c the system allows team B one cycle to retaliate.

But yes, there is a lot of game theory type of stuff that comes into play around signings.  Not so much at D3 (or likely even D2), but a lot at D1.  It's checkers (D3) vs. chess (D1)

My friend had been putting in effort since 11am before signing cycle with the recruit actually rejecting some effort. He claims he had to pull him down as well during the time before the signing cycle but at 5pm it was his school and the other school on the recruit. Then I believe he threw in another 40k of effort and at signing he was the only school the recruit considered. I'm not sure if he was trailing on WOTS but considering he had to pull down the recruit I think it's safe to assume he was trailing.

I guess what I'm unsure of is in a close battle that has been going back and forth prior to signings, this is implying that at 5pm, if the lead school puts in enough effort (enough being just enough to push off the trailing school), then the recruit will sign at 8:01.  I've rarely seen a battle that involved 2 schools prior to signings have a recruit sign with a school at 8:01 assuming it was being contested after 5pm.

Perhaps after signings has started, there is an additional level where the leading school can get a contested recruit to sign immediately but obviously the leading school always has a chance to respond to being passed by the trailing school (or has anyone seen the trailing school win it in a single cycle by pouring in a huge amount of effort)?

It may not happen often because coaches hold back to fight off potential late poachers, but I can assure you I've done it multiple times in D1 and have seen it many times as well. 

I ask this because I've heard stories about coaches who were the only school on a recruit only to have another school come in and sign the player at 8 - (maybe they forgot or couldn't recruit the last cycle before signing). Maybe there's no real battle but if the end result is one school on the player at signings - why wouldn't the player sign? It makes sense that WIS is giving the opposing school a shot at responding but I don't believe this happens all the time either. If I'm in a situation where I've recruited a player early with minimal funds and another school comes in and signs the player at 8 without ever showing - there's really no difference with the end result. I'd think the player would sign.

I was tired yesterday and I'll explain the situatinon.  I'm a b- at Arizona State the player was around 640 miles from me.  Stanford is a B who is closer I beleive like within 100 miles from the recruit.  I tried to recruit the player but he would not consider me so I put 10 Scouting Trips on the player and two Campus Visits at before the 2pm cycle.  The recruit rejected the Campus Visits.  Thinking I was close to getting the recruit to consider I sent another 10 Scouting Trips and 3 Campus Visits for the 5pm cycle hoping to be considered.  I still wasn't considered after 5pm but I thought I was close because the message from the email said considering the coaches at the gym we have a great shot and I got the message from the father.  "Was I serious and he jumped out of the gym".  So for the 8pm cycle I dumped 40k into the player hoping to overwhelm him to come to ASU.  At 8pm I was the only school being considered but some of my effort was rejected.  So I spent the rest of my 10 k on him and for the 11pm cycle so you know by then I was leading but was out of cash.  For the 2am cycle Washington came in with a A- after the 2am message WIS  said Washington and Ariz is being considered (meaning Washington came and took the lead) and Stanford was an fall back option.  We all know the recruit ended up at Washington after that.  I'm dont understand because I started the poaching after the 11am cycle but the recruit was rejecting my effort.  I sent a ticket to WIS but as a B- I should not need 20 Scouting Trips to pull down a 4 Star recruit especially when another 4 Star recruit in Nev that was INEG considered me with no Scouting trips and took all my effort and both players were in the 600 mile range.  Even at a B- and Stanford being a B both schools should be known in a BCS conference.

1.  iwantyurmind2, just to confirm, did you send any calls upfront to the coach or the player and definitively got a backup message?  Sometimes if another school is in the clear lead the kid will reject some of your first effort, and it could appear that you're a backup.  I'm not sure which is the scenario here, but I'll trust that since you're in D1 you know for a fact you were indeed a backup.  And it's been too long for me personally that I simply don't know where the cutoffs are anymore as to the prestige vs. "treated like a backup" cutoff lines are.  So somebody else will have to weigh in on that part.

2. But, it's as I figured, you were obviously behind going into signings but then swamped the kid with effort.  The system allows the other school (Stanford) -- or really anybody else -- to get back into the fight for the kid or he'll sign with you the next cycle. 

3. I haven't observed what you're describing rednation about a school signing a kid at signings w/o having previously been involved with the kid.  I don't think this can happen and haven't ever seen this or even heard talk of such a happening.

 As for one school on a kid at signings but not signing, again, I think this has to do with a battle situation where a school comes from behind at signings to take the lead.  If he had been in the lead in the cycle immediately prior, the kid would've signed.  But since he wasn't, there's that extra cycle to allow the other school (or anybody else) to get involved again. 

Jdno - I'm not clear on previous recruiting effort before signing - but almost similar to iwants case - They would have to have been the only school on the recruit because the player signed. I believe I heard dacj tell a story similar to this outcome where he had money to battle but didn't put it on the recruit for whatever reason and lost the recruit at signing because he tried to sign the player for little money.

Posted by rednation58 on 11/18/2014 12:14:00 PM (view original):
Jdno - I'm not clear on previous recruiting effort before signing - but almost similar to iwants case - They would have to have been the only school on the recruit because the player signed. I believe I heard dacj tell a story similar to this outcome where he had money to battle but didn't put it on the recruit for whatever reason and lost the recruit at signing because he tried to sign the player for little money.

Red, I'm not sure what you mean in your first sentence.  What part aren't you clear on?

I just don't see or hear many instances of a kid signing at 7pm CST when he wasn't previously considering the school that he signed with in that cycle. 

But in any event, this case you're describing is different than iwantyourmind's case where the kid didn't sign.  I've seen that case and think I'm describing it accurately.  You seem to be wanting to say iwantyourmind's case violates the inherent ability of a kid to just sign with whoever is ahead at 7pm regardless of who the kid may have been previously considering or, importantly, who was ahead just before signings.  But that's just not how it works imo based on my experience and observations.

In the future, if you see something that certainly violates what I'm describing is the process, please post it right away.  I guess that's the only definitive way at this point.

In the first cycle I sent effort to the player and it was rejected except he held the scholorship.  I sent CV but I stoped making phone calls.  For my taste it's a waste of money.

Posted by iwanturmind2 on 11/18/2014 1:52:00 PM (view original):
In the first cycle I sent effort to the player and it was rejected except he held the scholorship.  I sent CV but I stoped making phone calls.  For my taste it's a waste of money.

OK, so just 1 CV in the first cycle and that was it? 

On the first round of evals you sent (with the 2 rejected CVs), was the verbage at the bottom indicative of a dropdown kid ("we aren't in the same league as some of the other coaches"? kind of stuff).  It's still possible that he was rejecting the visits simply because another school was on his list and there weren't any other calls, letters, or HVs to "ease" into the recruiting process?  And if you batched the 2 CVs together, then it's hard to know with certainty based on what you wrote whether the kid was indeed a dropdown/pulldown for you or you simply got unlucky with your initial recruiting efforts.  If a kid is already considering somebody else, it seems breaking into a kid and just getting him to take HVs or CVs can be a challenge sometimes.

Did he take the 3 CVs in that second cycle of effort?