A disturbing lack of D1 battles. Topic

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/11/2014 12:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cburton23 on 12/11/2014 9:40:00 AM (view original):
I think putting a baseline number on top recruits would help.  With no battles I can lock up a top recruit for under 2K depending on distance.  Nobody will battle the big boys with big money when that is all it takes.  If a coach has 5 openings and you are the only coach fighting him, he has all the money he needs to fight you off.  What happens is then these top programs not only get the top recruits, but also have a ton of carry over money each year to continue the cycle.

My solution is to create a threshold for recruits based on their rankings.  10K minimum to sign an elite player and on down, or something to that effect
The threshold is an excellent idea.
It really is a must. Seble needs to get his butt on this. But I guess WIS's plan is to instead further alienate HDers by promising that changes are coming and then failing to communicate for over half of a year.
12/11/2014 4:11 PM
the changes came and went... i forget what they were exactly, but it was typical, come in and tweak a couple little things, one or two of which are nice to have (to their credit), but without addressing the real problems. 
12/11/2014 5:40 PM
Threshold + HUGE bump to starts & minutes for upper level guys and recruiting would be wayyyyyy more interesting.  I'd be all for it.  
12/11/2014 6:26 PM
Posted by gillispie1 on 12/11/2014 3:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dcy0827 on 12/11/2014 3:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dacj501 on 12/11/2014 2:19:00 AM (view original):
blame the system. The primary reason for this is that most experienced D1 coaches can recognize a losing battle and either dont initiate poorly or bail when they see the writing on the wall. Of course, even though this, like everything else I sputter, is stated with authority, it is just an idea I just thought of reading the thread. But it sounds plausible.

(ETA, especially the coaches that can realistically compete for the top recruits...)
It's probably the very reason you don't see many battles CJ. The most experienced coaches know when they're fighting a losing battle and when it's time to cut bait and move on. Why pour all your money into a guy you know you're not going to get? Move on and find a replacement, quite simple logic really.

Add in the fact that "poaching" (and no, I don't believe there is such a thing, but that's the term everyone uses, so that's why I'm using it) seems to be becoming a more and more popular method to recruit is probably another contributing factor in the lack of battles. More coaches are becoming more patient, biding their time, waiting for a mistake, then hit-and-run recruiting right before signings leaving no time for battles.

Finally, just the general lack of coaches period means there are more good players to go around. You wouldn't being seeing this in a full world or even a world two-thirds full. Then the demand would outweigh the supply and if a coach wanted to be successful, they'd be FORCED to battle for the quality recruits. If they didn't, they'd lose and (if it worked correctly) be fired.



Summary, not enough coaches. The coaches there are experienced enough to know when to fold 'em. More patience during recruiting.

Equals lack of battles. Yep, it's "basically" a draft (with the minor exception here or there) and it has been for a good, long while now. Might as well get used to it because unless something drastic happens to the game it doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon. Which is a pity.
the BCS conferences are full, i fail to see how having more mid major coaches is going to impact the battles of the A prestige schools? you might get a few mid majors who are competitive at those levels, but its typically going to knock down some BCS schools in the region as a result. 

i agree with the premise, its just not applied correctly, IMO. full worlds would force some coaches to battle for recruits - its just the middle to lower BCS and higher mid major tier, that that becomes true for. those teams would be fighting for the same guys they get now, split more ways. its easy to have more moderate prestige mid majors and just have some of the sims be crappier... but this does not largely trickle up to the A prestige schools. it would make being a mid major or mid-lower BCS school completely insane - fighting hard for mediocre players like it was when the new engine came out - which is why roughly half those folks (a third of all d1 coaches) left. 

recruit generation is a problem, and the simplistic regional auction style recruiting model is a problem. not having coaches is symptom, not the problem itself.
More mid-major coaches means more teams for those conferences in the tourneys, which means more recruiting dollars. More recruiting dollars mean a better chance for those mid-majors to take a chance battling mid-level BCS schools. Plus due to more teams having human coaches, that means that the desirable players now have more competition for them. Sure maybe it doesn't affect the very top of the line A+ prestige schools, but it would necessitate that more battles be fought over the next lower tier of players, that is, if a coach wanted to be successful.

I'll agree that recruit generation is the biggest problem, but a lack of coaches is also a huge problem itself.

12/11/2014 9:31 PM
If there were more mid-major coaches, it would just become more of a struggle to sneak those lower-tier gems onto your roster. It wouldn't effect the Big 6 schools nearly as much as it would effect the competitive mid-majors. As I see it, there is more competition for that lower tier of recruits anyway. Competition needs to be generated for the elite recruits so it's not so easy for high-prestige teams in power conferences to coast on as title contenders season after season for eternity.
12/11/2014 10:14 PM
Posted by tkimble on 12/11/2014 6:26:00 PM (view original):
Threshold + HUGE bump to starts & minutes for upper level guys and recruiting would be wayyyyyy more interesting.  I'd be all for it.  
+1
12/11/2014 11:32 PM
Would this even be all that hard to implement in the recruiting engine? Seems like it wouldn't. 
12/12/2014 1:11 AM
Not sure about the minimum requirement for players based on talent, but boosting the value of starts and minutes would be really easy.  It's a much smaller change than changing all of recruit generation, but it would certainly make a lot of people happy and add a needed wrinkle to recruiting.  
12/12/2014 1:15 AM
Posted by gillispie1 on 12/11/2014 3:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dcy0827 on 12/11/2014 3:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dacj501 on 12/11/2014 2:19:00 AM (view original):
blame the system. The primary reason for this is that most experienced D1 coaches can recognize a losing battle and either dont initiate poorly or bail when they see the writing on the wall. Of course, even though this, like everything else I sputter, is stated with authority, it is just an idea I just thought of reading the thread. But it sounds plausible.

(ETA, especially the coaches that can realistically compete for the top recruits...)
It's probably the very reason you don't see many battles CJ. The most experienced coaches know when they're fighting a losing battle and when it's time to cut bait and move on. Why pour all your money into a guy you know you're not going to get? Move on and find a replacement, quite simple logic really.

Add in the fact that "poaching" (and no, I don't believe there is such a thing, but that's the term everyone uses, so that's why I'm using it) seems to be becoming a more and more popular method to recruit is probably another contributing factor in the lack of battles. More coaches are becoming more patient, biding their time, waiting for a mistake, then hit-and-run recruiting right before signings leaving no time for battles.

Finally, just the general lack of coaches period means there are more good players to go around. You wouldn't being seeing this in a full world or even a world two-thirds full. Then the demand would outweigh the supply and if a coach wanted to be successful, they'd be FORCED to battle for the quality recruits. If they didn't, they'd lose and (if it worked correctly) be fired.



Summary, not enough coaches. The coaches there are experienced enough to know when to fold 'em. More patience during recruiting.

Equals lack of battles. Yep, it's "basically" a draft (with the minor exception here or there) and it has been for a good, long while now. Might as well get used to it because unless something drastic happens to the game it doesn't look like it'll be changing any time soon. Which is a pity.
the BCS conferences are full, i fail to see how having more mid major coaches is going to impact the battles of the A prestige schools? you might get a few mid majors who are competitive at those levels, but its typically going to knock down some BCS schools in the region as a result. 

i agree with the premise, its just not applied correctly, IMO. full worlds would force some coaches to battle for recruits - its just the middle to lower BCS and higher mid major tier, that that becomes true for. those teams would be fighting for the same guys they get now, split more ways. its easy to have more moderate prestige mid majors and just have some of the sims be crappier... but this does not largely trickle up to the A prestige schools. it would make being a mid major or mid-lower BCS school completely insane - fighting hard for mediocre players like it was when the new engine came out - which is why roughly half those folks (a third of all d1 coaches) left. 

recruit generation is a problem, and the simplistic regional auction style recruiting model is a problem. not having coaches is symptom, not the problem itself.
+1 


12/12/2014 2:28 AM
Posted by tkimble on 12/12/2014 1:15:00 AM (view original):
Not sure about the minimum requirement for players based on talent, but boosting the value of starts and minutes would be really easy.  It's a much smaller change than changing all of recruit generation, but it would certainly make a lot of people happy and add a needed wrinkle to recruiting.  
This is a nice start and a good idea. However, I still don't see how boosting the value of starts and minutes is any less difficult than altering the recruit generation.  Both would seem to be pretty easy fixes.


12/12/2014 2:54 AM
this is like playing nearly any board game. collusion is beneficial to all. game theory would probably dictate few battles. probably a mixed strategy of rare battles with the occasional bluff thrown in.
12/12/2014 3:11 AM
Posted by possumfiend on 12/12/2014 2:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tkimble on 12/12/2014 1:15:00 AM (view original):
Not sure about the minimum requirement for players based on talent, but boosting the value of starts and minutes would be really easy.  It's a much smaller change than changing all of recruit generation, but it would certainly make a lot of people happy and add a needed wrinkle to recruiting.  
This is a nice start and a good idea. However, I still don't see how boosting the value of starts and minutes is any less difficult than altering the recruit generation.  Both would seem to be pretty easy fixes.


Because you are basically just bumping up a number value int he case of increasing the value of starts and minuts, in the case of altering recruit generation there are likely many more moving parts?

Perhaps bump up the value of favorite school a bit? Every now and then, that star recruit might ignore Duke because "I really just always wanted to play at Gonzaga!" If it was worth a good bit more it might diversify where players land a bit?
12/12/2014 7:39 AM
One note on increasing the value of starts and promises - if that is done they also need to SIGNIFICANTLY increase the penalties for not fulfilling promises. Like, if you break a promise, they start getting declined by other recruits for a couple of seasons, and transfers are almost guaranteed after broken promises. I'm hesitant to give a ton of weight to something as completely crazy as favorite school. In Tark the last 10-12 seasons there have been fewer than 5 CA recruits list UCLA as their favorite school.
12/12/2014 7:58 AM
Posted by acn24 on 12/12/2014 7:58:00 AM (view original):
One note on increasing the value of starts and promises - if that is done they also need to SIGNIFICANTLY increase the penalties for not fulfilling promises. Like, if you break a promise, they start getting declined by other recruits for a couple of seasons, and transfers are almost guaranteed after broken promises. I'm hesitant to give a ton of weight to something as completely crazy as favorite school. In Tark the last 10-12 seasons there have been fewer than 5 CA recruits list UCLA as their favorite school.
Well, in that case you would also alter how they pick favorite schools. Giving more weight to local schools and moving out, etcetera.
12/12/2014 8:39 AM
favorite schools is just one example of how more texture could make recruiting more fun AND give lesser teams a shot

favorite schools
prefer warm climate
prefer cold climate
care about academics
care about party school
pipelines - pipeline connection with a particular high school or with a local geographic area

12/12/2014 8:56 AM
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A disturbing lack of D1 battles. Topic

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