Posted by hughesjr on 4/14/2015 3:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 4/14/2015 1:54:00 PM (view original):
I don't know I'll just put out this:

it seems a lot of championship teams are elite defense everywhere with 1/2 very strong perimeter players with elite spd/per/bh.  Like 90+ spd. and respectable Ath like high 50's 60's.

whereas I don't see a lot of elite offense everywhere with 1/2 strong defenders win.

Also Carlbuzz just won a D2 Tark championship running Zone, I still agree it is the weakest defense, just giving out extra deserved props for the coaching there.

Also love the convo that has evolved very informative reading!!

Well, as an example, I think that for a Division II team, you need to have a minimal overall team average DEF and ATH rating of 60 as a goal.  You have to "project" where a player is going to finish based on potential when you recruit him, and you need to set a minimal value for some attributes based on position and not go below those except in an emergency .. for example, I try to never recruit anyone on any of my Div-2 teams that are projected at lower than 50 DEF.

I also use a system similar to the player roles (using the project numbers, not the actual numbers at recruit time), and recruit based on that with some minimal values for important attributes.

The Yatzr Recruiting Tool is ideal for this .. but I used to do it with spreadsheets before that as well.

And this thread is very good to help you decide what final attribute values are important for each position.

Just commenting on the first paragraph as I don't use that recruiting tool or anything else besides my own eyes.

I agree with Hughes assessment of what benchmarks to aim for.  To take it a bit further, I "try" to get my older, more upperclassmen-heavy teams to hit a 70-50-70 benchmark (Ath/Spd/Def).  I think that teams that can get to those minimums, while still having reasonably respectable numbers elsewhere, are almost always at least a threat to make a deep, deep, like title deep, run.  I had a title winning team in Phelan D2 a couple of seasons ago that reached 76/55/78 and had enough improvement room left to get that 78 up to 80, but I ran out of season.  34-1 and didn't have a tourney game that was really even close.  Still can't figure out what happened in that "1", but that's another story for another time.

Posted by hughesjr on 4/14/2015 3:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 4/14/2015 1:54:00 PM (view original):
I don't know I'll just put out this:

it seems a lot of championship teams are elite defense everywhere with 1/2 very strong perimeter players with elite spd/per/bh.  Like 90+ spd. and respectable Ath like high 50's 60's.

whereas I don't see a lot of elite offense everywhere with 1/2 strong defenders win.

Also Carlbuzz just won a D2 Tark championship running Zone, I still agree it is the weakest defense, just giving out extra deserved props for the coaching there.

Also love the convo that has evolved very informative reading!!

Well, as an example, I think that for a Division II team, you need to have a minimal overall team average DEF and ATH rating of 60 as a goal.  You have to "project" where a player is going to finish based on potential when you recruit him, and you need to set a minimal value for some attributes based on position and not go below those except in an emergency .. for example, I try to never recruit anyone on any of my Div-2 teams that are projected at lower than 50 DEF.

I also use a system similar to the player roles (using the project numbers, not the actual numbers at recruit time), and recruit based on that with some minimal values for important attributes.

The Yatzr Recruiting Tool is ideal for this .. but I used to do it with spreadsheets before that as well.

And this thread is very good to help you decide what final attribute values are important for each position.

that yatzr tool is amazing hughes, although it hasn't been working the past 2 weeks but I think that was because of that update.

I try to do the same think for my projections and I always go min, so red is 0 black is 7 and blue is 20 or 28 if I scout.  So that I don't get disapointed when a black turns red after 1 practice.

I go 50 def for D3.  And I try for 60 def min and preferably higher at D2 and will only go under if I plan for them to be a role player like 80+ bh/pas and has 90+ spd.  I might take with 45 or 50 def as a backup PG.

Generally I see 57-60 ath/def for D3 champs and D2 can go from mid 60's to low 70's in some good cases.

I take along time recruiting but I take the players ratings and then project using 0,7,20,28 and compare who I'd rather have in the end, also taking into account WE and put them on my watch list and then take those watch list players and put them all in a spreadsheet such as this:  Google Doc  it can take awhile if theres a lot of good recruits but its worth it to find the best ones.

The guide is great, I wish we could get it stickied on the front page.  I don't know if I've earned the right but theres one thing I would easily change or at least make more clear is the 120 rule for guards ath/spd.  I think spd is more important so a 60/60 PG is worse than a 40/80 PG in my opinion all other ratings the same.  I think for guards you need at least 70 in PG/SG for average speed for a deep tourney run at D3 and 80+ to have an elite speed player.  D2 I'd probably say high 70's is the lowest and mid 80's is average with elite speed being 90 as well as having a higher ath a bit more important.

Also, to any newer coaches who are reading this thread, I'd add this:  don't get too infatuated with hitting minimum marks.  While I do agree with Hughes, I think you also have to be flexible enough as a recruiter to bend your own rules a bit.  What I mean is, let's say that you've set your minimum standards for a guard at 45/65/55 (for example, it should probably be higher really, but bear with me).  But........you see this badass guard who projects to end up at 85/95/35.  Would you sign him?  He's below your minimums don't forget.  In that particular case, even with the low defense, I would probably sign him in a heartbeat, especially if his other ratings (Per, BH, Pass, Stam, etc.) are decent.  I wouldn't be particularly thrilled about his low defensive rating, but if he's good enough sometimes you have to make an exception.

Now, of course, I made this example hard to resist but the point still stands.  Set your minimums but be flexible too.

Posted by emy1013 on 4/14/2015 4:06:00 PM (view original):
Also, to any newer coaches who are reading this thread, I'd add this:  don't get too infatuated with hitting minimum marks.  While I do agree with Hughes, I think you also have to be flexible enough as a recruiter to bend your own rules a bit.  What I mean is, let's say that you've set your minimum standards for a guard at 45/65/55 (for example, it should probably be higher really, but bear with me).  But........you see this badass guard who projects to end up at 85/95/35.  Would you sign him?  He's below your minimums don't forget.  In that particular case, even with the low defense, I would probably sign him in a heartbeat, especially if his other ratings (Per, BH, Pass, Stam, etc.) are decent.  I wouldn't be particularly thrilled about his low defensive rating, but if he's good enough sometimes you have to make an exception.

Now, of course, I made this example hard to resist but the point still stands.  Set your minimums but be flexible too.

I think maybe this is something we could work on and get a stickied thing if we go in depth on player ratings, since theres ALWAYS questions about these(me included) if we as a group come up with base guidelines and then areas where its okay to be flexible and then areas where its not.

So like say we describe a PG

40 ath 65 spd 40 def 50 bh 50 bh is your pg that helps you get to the NT and a first round exit.  You want to focus on getting ath/spd/def/bh/pas.  Like for example at D3 I like my PG's to be at least 40 ath 70 spd 40 def 60 bh 50 pas.  and areas I would never go below is 30 ath and 30 def reguardless of other abilities.

If we set up like a bassline idea which is hard since every differs on what they like some may like 70/70 compared to 50/90 but if we show a lot more examples and places where we are flexible in and establish ratings you might consider if other ratings are superb and then ratings that automatically disqualifies a recruit such as 10 ath or 4 def.

If we could get some stickied posts with some tips and have WIS require new players to read at least one before they do anything else we might help educate those new players as best we can without stalking them out and spamming them until they hate like I've started to do a bit to make sure I'm doing my best to help people out.

Posted by emy1013 on 4/14/2015 4:06:00 PM (view original):
Also, to any newer coaches who are reading this thread, I'd add this:  don't get too infatuated with hitting minimum marks.  While I do agree with Hughes, I think you also have to be flexible enough as a recruiter to bend your own rules a bit.  What I mean is, let's say that you've set your minimum standards for a guard at 45/65/55 (for example, it should probably be higher really, but bear with me).  But........you see this badass guard who projects to end up at 85/95/35.  Would you sign him?  He's below your minimums don't forget.  In that particular case, even with the low defense, I would probably sign him in a heartbeat, especially if his other ratings (Per, BH, Pass, Stam, etc.) are decent.  I wouldn't be particularly thrilled about his low defensive rating, but if he's good enough sometimes you have to make an exception.

Now, of course, I made this example hard to resist but the point still stands.  Set your minimums but be flexible too.

I agree with this too .. sometimes take guys CLOSE to 50 DEF but a little below if they are really good offensively, etc.  But, i hold it to a minimum :)

Just as a question, Hughes, why not work free throw shooting into the equation?

Posted by arssanguinus on 4/15/2015 5:20:00 PM (view original):
Just as a question, Hughes, why not work free throw shooting into the equation?

I should do that too .. It does, by valuing ATH and BH, value guys who will draw a lot of fouls.

I also have actual made free throws impact what  I call an offensive efficiency which is:

(2ptM + (1.5 * 3ptM) + (0.5 * FTM)) / (FGA + (0.5 * FTA))

That is an overall percentage of scoring.  I compare everyone to the team average and add distro to people who are higher than the average.  I don't so that until late in the season though ... at least game 15-18.

I mean, it's would seem there would be a higher weight of free throw shooting for higt free throw types of scorers and a lower for your perimeter scorers. A guy who draws a bunch of fouls but only hits half of his free throws is less valuable than a player who gets slightly less free throws but can hit 90% of them.

Posted by a_in_the_b on 4/15/2015 6:13:00 PM (view original):
I mean, it's would seem there would be a higher weight of free throw shooting for higt free throw types of scorers and a lower for your perimeter scorers. A guy who draws a bunch of fouls but only hits half of his free throws is less valuable than a player who gets slightly less free throws but can hit 90% of them.

In your last sentence, what kind of numbers do you mean by draws a "bunch" of fouls and the other guy "slightly less"?  I'm wondering because as I was thinking about it, my initial instinct was one of disagreement (though probably not for what most people would think), but I suppose it could come down to what the difference is between a "bunch" and "slightly less"?  Could you give some of what you would consider to be "realistic" amounts?

I mean, if you're talking 10 FT's a game at 50% versus 8 a game at 90%, then sure.  But my gut feeling says those weren't the numbers you had in mind when you typed that.  Maybe, maybe not?

I wasn' talking specific numbers so much as saying that how well you shoot free throws could move a player up or down significantly for distribution purposes.  It seeems if you were assigning value to a player based on how many fouls they draw and free throws they shoot, how many of those free throws they can hit is a significant factor.

I agree that it's a gray area, and that it's difficult to quantify the benefit of putting fouls on your opponents' players.  There's getting to the line and getting points, and there's also getting their starters out of the game for longer than the opposing coach would like.  I find myself trying not to pursue that goal very hard, as there's a limited ability to get specific players to foul your guys.

Posted by llamanunts on 4/15/2015 11:56:00 PM (view original):
I agree that it's a gray area, and that it's difficult to quantify the benefit of putting fouls on your opponents' players.  There's getting to the line and getting points, and there's also getting their starters out of the game for longer than the opposing coach would like.  I find myself trying not to pursue that goal very hard, as there's a limited ability to get specific players to foul your guys.

Right .. drawing fouls (and not necessarily making them), is good too because of the impact it has on the other team.  Obviously there is no way to pick which guy fouls you in this game, but you can find guys who will draw fouls, and drawing fouls does get players from the other team on the bench.

@a_in_the_b .. your reason (making vs taking FT) is why I created my offensive efficiency, were it does look specifically at a percentage of points verses all attempts and I give pluses in distro to guys who are more efficient scorers based on made shots.  I also sometimes take off a couple in distro from guys who are not efficient scorers.

Incidentally, and this is entirely my FUBAR that I have this situation, but what would you do with a team with a pretty strong front court and a, shall we say, under aged and under seasoned front court. I know at the biggest answer is 'wait and hope that the guards catch up" but anyone have any clever ideas they might use to try to ride out that particular problem? ( Yes I know, a weird and screwed up roster right now)

http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=13170