I'd say that the first adverse affect of the proposed changes is that an inordinate amount of coaches now suffer from CBGitis (e.g., the inability to conduct a discussion in 1 or 2 short, concise paragraphs). And I unfortunately suffer from a severe case of JTosis (an extreme case of laziness wherein the afflicted adamantly refuses to read anything that is unnecessarily long-winded). Bad combination for the discussions we've been having. So...if the following is redundant to anything others have said, forgive me:

the most important poll that should be taken is how many coaches will leave if the proposed changes are implemented as currently anticipated? Could even be on a sliding scale of very likely, somewhat likely, etc. For me, I'm very likely.

As an aside, the long intro was meant to be ironic.

FOr me, I think talking about leaving before you've even seen the test world is drastically premature,.

Couldn't you say that about having any opinion?!?!

Indeed.  WHich is why I don't have a firm opinion yet, just some inclinations.

Posted by tarvolon on 9/18/2015 6:09:00 PM (view original):
one more thing I just thought of: I have no idea how you could roll out the new scouting stuff and keep pulldowns, because scouting is no longer effort towards getting a player. Pulldowns would have to be rethought entirely if they're going to be brought back. this is the reason I think the mechanics stuff has to happen together, because so much of it is interconnected. 

interesting. attention points, i imagine, would fill a similar role. its just hard with so little flexibility in actions, one thing i do not like at all is the restriction of actions so tightly, where you don't get to select the actions that fit you and your budget best. also scouting trips... do they definitely do no effort anymore? or are you sort of just assuming because of everything?

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/18/2015 8:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tarvolon on 9/18/2015 6:09:00 PM (view original):
one more thing I just thought of: I have no idea how you could roll out the new scouting stuff and keep pulldowns, because scouting is no longer effort towards getting a player. Pulldowns would have to be rethought entirely if they're going to be brought back. this is the reason I think the mechanics stuff has to happen together, because so much of it is interconnected. 

interesting. attention points, i imagine, would fill a similar role. its just hard with so little flexibility in actions, one thing i do not like at all is the restriction of actions so tightly, where you don't get to select the actions that fit you and your budget best. also scouting trips... do they definitely do no effort anymore? or are you sort of just assuming because of everything?

I was under the impression STs were gone.

I posted this question somewhere else but it probably got lost in the shuffle.  If scouting effort (including camps, per what seble implied) no longer qualifies as effort towards a recruit and a recruit won't accept HVs/CVs until they've had considerable attention, what tools are we going to have to get a recruit's attention?

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/18/2015 8:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tarvolon on 9/18/2015 6:09:00 PM (view original):
one more thing I just thought of: I have no idea how you could roll out the new scouting stuff and keep pulldowns, because scouting is no longer effort towards getting a player. Pulldowns would have to be rethought entirely if they're going to be brought back. this is the reason I think the mechanics stuff has to happen together, because so much of it is interconnected. 

interesting. attention points, i imagine, would fill a similar role. its just hard with so little flexibility in actions, one thing i do not like at all is the restriction of actions so tightly, where you don't get to select the actions that fit you and your budget best. also scouting trips... do they definitely do no effort anymore? or are you sort of just assuming because of everything?

I'm about 95% sure seble said SVs are no longer effort

I'm going to wait to see the changes rather than speculating about how they will impact the experience. But they are well thought out and are likely to add nuance and texture, which I am for. Plus, we've all been playing this same game a long time, why not see what Seble comes up with and give it a whirl?

I don't have time to keep up with all of this but the fact is none of us know if this update will be good for the game in the long run.  We can speculate, some probably better than others, but nobody knows.  If, after the update, I still enjoy playing, I'll keep playing.  If not, well I've always wanted to try HBD :).  However, we do know somethings:

1.  We play this game because we enjoy it.  That number has to be close to 100%, or why would we spend the time and money?

2.  Previous major game change led to a large number of coaches leaving (before my time, but this is true from what I've seen in numerous spots)

3.  We could use more coaches now.

4.  Marketing of this game, which seems like it should be cheap and easy on media owned by Fox, is not at good as it should be. 

So I guess what I want to see addressed somewhere, in some detail (and maybe it was and I missed it) is what marketing/advertising is going to be done after the update so that if I'm still playing a year from now it won't be in worlds with 90% - 95% SimAIs.

well just look at the college basketball main page at fox sports

http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball  

see all the ways they are promoting HD - there's that link to WIS on the side and there's that simulation bracket matching great college teams of the past

and there's that blog that discusses college ball from the analytic perspective that now and then talks about simulations

ooops, cant find those?  

that's because they are not there.  They dont do things that would be cheap and easy to do.

We've been saying this same stuff! I've been on all sorts of sports sites all year round for many years but I've never seen it anywhere. Only reason I heard about this site was through word of mouth. Internet ads on their own site has to be CHEAP, right? Or there's this social media thing that's been getting pretty popular lately called Facebook. Is it really expensive to get ads and stuff on there? Or a twitter? Something?

Honestly that's all this site/game really needs. Do a bunch of marketing right around and after March Madness when there's a big lull in the fantasy world and you only really have baseball going on. TONS of opportunity here.

Many of us have said that forever.  When Fox acquired WIS, I thought it was the plan.  

At the start of baseball season promote that SIM - same with hoops.  Cheap and easy on the Fox web sites.  Get some guy to talk about historic simulations or a simulation of current teams on radio or even once on TV and watch customers flow

but none of that.  Stuff that three of us could outline in a morning - give us a conference room, donuts and a budget of $10,000 and they could double or triple the traffic on this site.

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/18/2015 11:40:00 AM (view original):
There are problems with the existing poll to me... specifically, that it was taken before we had the info we have now, and second, that it has three answers and its not exactly clear how to read the third. I am going to take some liberty here and try to capture the essence of the debate in a couple quick polls. I'm honestly not sure how the community is split, the posts are more negative but that is always going to skew that way, I'd like a real read on the general support level and how people feel about the magnitude of change.

While this poll is a decent idea, if I were seble, I would be just as concerned with potential players as current players.

A lot of this community benefits from the Founder's Effect in a way, and the recruiting system has no doubt discouraged new players from sticking to the game (either from competitive disadvantages or from general lack of fun).

I think if you make it easy so that people enjoy it most, I am talking about the recruiting system, then the game is dead. I still haven't won anything, except a PIT DII championship, but I prefer not having anything given to me. I am pretty sure most of the players in here feel the same way, that is why they like it.

And when somebody does something insane, Stewdog winning four in a row at D1, UAA, Naismith, Bringing the conference RPI to new heights every seasons, makes everyone want to compete and find their ways.

And if you look at coaches philosophy, you can win with your perception of the game. Seble went out and said he did not think ath/spd/def/ were the most important stats in the game... So basically, there is a lot people still do not really understand about how this game is simulated, which makes it interesting and leaves new owners with options. Ledfoot in Phelan DII is an example. So are Viddy6 and Anavrin, they play differently than most owners. I'd say my conf mate Ukula is building teams I'd never build, but he competes.

Posted by zorzii on 9/19/2015 11:53:00 AM (view original):
I think if you make it easy so that people enjoy it most, I am talking about the recruiting system, then the game is dead. I still haven't won anything, except a PIT DII championship, but I prefer not having anything given to me. I am pretty sure most of the players in here feel the same way, that is why they like it.

And when somebody does something insane, Stewdog winning four in a row at D1, UAA, Naismith, Bringing the conference RPI to new heights every seasons, makes everyone want to compete and find their ways.

And if you look at coaches philosophy, you can win with your perception of the game. Seble went out and said he did not think ath/spd/def/ were the most important stats in the game... So basically, there is a lot people still do not really understand about how this game is simulated, which makes it interesting and leaves new owners with options. Ledfoot in Phelan DII is an example. So are Viddy6 and Anavrin, they play differently than most owners. I'd say my conf mate Ukula is building teams I'd never build, but he competes.

Yes, but by Seble making his statement about Ath/Def not being the most important attributes in the game, I personally think that shows just how out of touch with the game he really is.  It is obvious, painfully obvious, to ANYONE that has played for even a few seasons and has had any kind of real success that those two categories/ratings are by FAR the most important in the game.  I dare him to try to win on anything resembling a consistent level by recruiting teams that are low in these ratings but high in others.  Hint:  it won't happen.  Why does he think those are the most sought after players in the game because their pictures are pretty?

That single statement alone gives me great pause to wonder whether anyone at WiS has even been paying any attention to how this game actually functions....