Posted by the0nlyis on 9/30/2015 1:02:00 AM (view original):
If we are talking about the past 10 seasons Ohio State has to be an A+ theres very few teams with a better track record and most of those are blue bloods.

278-93 .749 win%

3 30+ wins seasons

4 CT Champs

5 regular season champs

Runner Up, F4, E8, S16, S16, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, NIT Champ

If I take off my homer goggles I could see an A if there is sub 10 A+ programs

Agreed, this is why I thought it was strange GTown was higher than OSU. The fact that OSU is a A- and Providence is a B+ is crazy. OSU should be a solid A. I think only thing holding them back from A+ is a National Championship. But if they were A+, I wouldn't argue it.

I think there's a balance from historical success and more recent success (10,15, 20 years. Whatever we mean by recent). But I think the last 10-20 years should be weighted more heavily than stuff that happened in the 70s and 80s or even earlier in the case of some schools. 

Regarding UCLA - they did have 3 straight final four trips in the mid 2000s. That's pretty damn impressive. So even though the last 5 years or so have been rough, they still have more Final Fours in the last 15 years than most schools. 

Indiana would be fine to drop a bit in my opinion. They did have the 1 seed recently (and then got crushed by my Orange in the 2nd round) but they're certainly not the powerhouse they used to be. 

How about we eliminate baseline prestige completely.  Dumbest concept implemented for HD.  This is not What if Sports, this is Recreate Real-life Power and Prestige Sports.  I guess RRPPS did not sound as good from a marketing standpoint as did WIS.

Posted by gomiami1972 on 9/30/2015 7:33:00 AM (view original):
How about we eliminate baseline prestige completely.  Dumbest concept implemented for HD.  This is not What if Sports, this is Recreate Real-life Power and Prestige Sports.  I guess RRPPS did not sound as good from a marketing standpoint as did WIS.

There has to be a check and balance and I feel the baseline put that in order. In any college division NCAA, NAIA, WIS there is have and have nots.  There needs to be a reason for people to move up and having Divisions and Major conferences in each makes it realistic.  If everybody is the same there would not be schools getting Nike contracts lol.  I like the baseline I just feel there should be some schools with higher baselines and a new Major Conference.  To make it more like todays CBB.

Posted by Benis on 9/30/2015 6:54:00 AM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 9/30/2015 1:02:00 AM (view original):
If we are talking about the past 10 seasons Ohio State has to be an A+ theres very few teams with a better track record and most of those are blue bloods.

278-93 .749 win%

3 30+ wins seasons

4 CT Champs

5 regular season champs

Runner Up, F4, E8, S16, S16, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, NIT Champ

If I take off my homer goggles I could see an A if there is sub 10 A+ programs

Agreed, this is why I thought it was strange GTown was higher than OSU. The fact that OSU is a A- and Providence is a B+ is crazy. OSU should be a solid A. I think only thing holding them back from A+ is a National Championship. But if they were A+, I wouldn't argue it.

I think there's a balance from historical success and more recent success (10,15, 20 years. Whatever we mean by recent). But I think the last 10-20 years should be weighted more heavily than stuff that happened in the 70s and 80s or even earlier in the case of some schools. 

Regarding UCLA - they did have 3 straight final four trips in the mid 2000s. That's pretty damn impressive. So even though the last 5 years or so have been rough, they still have more Final Fours in the last 15 years than most schools. 

Indiana would be fine to drop a bit in my opinion. They did have the 1 seed recently (and then got crushed by my Orange in the 2nd round) but they're certainly not the powerhouse they used to be. 

Everybody is making a strong case for OSU I may have to move them up.

Posted by iwanturmind2 on 9/30/2015 9:01:00 AM (view original):
ACC
A+ Duke
A+ North Carlonia
A- Notre Dame
A- Wake Forest
A- North Carlonia State
A- Boston College
B+ Virginia
B+ Florida St
B+ Georiga Tech
B Clemson
B Miami FL
B- Virgina Tech

Big East
A+Syracuse
A+ Louisville
A Georgetown
A- Villanova
A- Pittsburgh
B+ Providence
B+ Butler
B Xavier
B Creighton
B St Johns
B- Seton Hall
B- DuPaul

Big10
A+ Michigan State
A Maryland
A- Indiana
A- Wisconsin
A- Ohio State
B+ Illinois
B+ Purdue
B+ Michigan
B Iowa
B Minnesota
C+ Penn State
C+ Northwestern

SEC
A+ Kentucky
A+ Florida
B+ Arkansas
B Tennessee
B LSU
B South Carlonia
B Vanderbilt
B Gerogia
B Alabama
B Auburn
B Mississippi
B Mississippi State

PAC 10
A+ UCLA
A+ Arizona
A- Stanord
B+ California
B+ Oregon
B Washington
B Oregon State
B Washington St
B Arizona St.
B USC
B Colorado
B Utah

Big12
A+ Kansas
A- Oklahoma
B+ Oklahoma St
B+ Texas
B Missouri
B Iowa State
B Texas Tech
B Texas A&M
B Kansas State
B TCU
B West Virginia
B Baylor

American Athletic
A+ UCONN
A- Cincinnati
A- Memphis
A- Marquette
B+ Temple
B  Dayton
B- Nebraska
C+ Tulsa
C+  Navy
C+ Tulane
C+ South Florida
C+ East Carlonia

A10
All Schools B 
Moved VCU to A10 Replaced Temple
Moved Rutgers to A10 Replaced Dayton
Moved Delaware to Replace Xavier

WCC

B Gonzaga
All other Schools C
Moved BYU
Moved Idaho St

Mountain West
B+ UNLV
B+ San Diego St.
B New Mexico
B+ Fresno State
All other schools C
Moved Utah State
Nevada, Wy, Air Force, Colo St, Nevada., Bosie St, Hawaii

CUSA
Moved
B- Charlotte
B- SMU
C Denver
The Rest
C

Horizon
All Schools C

Missouri Valley
Whit. St B+
All other Schools C+

CAA
All Schools C-

Sun Belt
Moved C North Texas
Moved  South Alambama D
the rest D

All other Schools D
 

I made some changes.  The AAC lower schools have a C+ to reflect them being in a power conference,  Ohio St moved up to A, Marquette Butler ND moved up Boston College moved Down, Whit. St Moved up, Fresno St, SDSU & UNLV moved up CAA is C- Seton Hall moved down.

Posted by iwanturmind2 on 9/30/2015 9:03:00 AM (view original):

Posted by iwanturmind2 on 9/30/2015 9:01:00 AM (view original):
ACC
A+ Duke
A+ North Carlonia
A- Notre Dame
A- Wake Forest
A- North Carlonia State
A- Boston College
B+ Virginia
B+ Florida St
B+ Georiga Tech
B Clemson
B Miami FL
B- Virgina Tech

Big East
A+Syracuse
A+ Louisville
A Georgetown
A- Villanova
A- Pittsburgh
B+ Providence
B+ Butler
B Xavier
B Creighton
B St Johns
B- Seton Hall
B- DuPaul

Big10
A+ Michigan State
A Maryland
A- Indiana
A- Wisconsin
A- Ohio State
B+ Illinois
B+ Purdue
B+ Michigan
B Iowa
B Minnesota
C+ Penn State
C+ Northwestern

SEC
A+ Kentucky
A+ Florida
B+ Arkansas
B Tennessee
B LSU
B South Carlonia
B Vanderbilt
B Gerogia
B Alabama
B Auburn
B Mississippi
B Mississippi State

PAC 10
A+ UCLA
A+ Arizona
A- Stanord
B+ California
B+ Oregon
B Washington
B Oregon State
B Washington St
B Arizona St.
B USC
B Colorado
B Utah

Big12
A+ Kansas
A- Oklahoma
B+ Oklahoma St
B+ Texas
B Missouri
B Iowa State
B Texas Tech
B Texas A&M
B Kansas State
B TCU
B West Virginia
B Baylor

American Athletic
A+ UCONN
A- Cincinnati
A- Memphis
A- Marquette
B+ Temple
B  Dayton
B- Nebraska
C+ Tulsa
C+  Navy
C+ Tulane
C+ South Florida
C+ East Carlonia

A10
All Schools B 
Moved VCU to A10 Replaced Temple
Moved Rutgers to A10 Replaced Dayton
Moved Delaware to Replace Xavier

WCC

B Gonzaga
All other Schools C
Moved BYU
Moved Idaho St

Mountain West
B+ UNLV
B+ San Diego St.
B New Mexico
B+ Fresno State
All other schools C
Moved Utah State
Nevada, Wy, Air Force, Colo St, Nevada., Bosie St, Hawaii

CUSA
Moved
B- Charlotte
B- SMU
C Denver
The Rest
C

Horizon
All Schools C

Missouri Valley
Whit. St B+
All other Schools C+

CAA
All Schools C-

Sun Belt
Moved C North Texas
Moved  South Alambama D
the rest D

All other Schools D
 

I made some changes.  The AAC lower schools have a C+ to reflect them being in a power conference,  Ohio St moved up to A, Marquette Butler ND moved up Boston College moved Down, Whit. St Moved up, Fresno St, SDSU & UNLV moved up CAA is C- Seton Hall moved down.

There should not be a full letter grade of difference between WSU and UNI in the MVC.  They are much more similar than that though WSU gets more coverage

I think prestige should lean heavily on a school's history.
So Indiana should be ahead of Wisconsin.
LSU and Arkansas should go higher.

I haven't really thought this through, but what is the harm in running real life D-I results through the WIS prestige engine, updating baseline every April, and calling it good? I can see some cons (annual fluidity in baseline prestige), but seems like some dynamism that would be fairly simple to introduce and would be preferable to the status quo. I know it's not perfect, but seems like it's better than what happens now. Thoughts?

Posted by davefilby on 9/30/2015 10:29:00 AM (view original):
I haven't really thought this through, but what is the harm in running real life D-I results through the WIS prestige engine, updating baseline every April, and calling it good? I can see some cons (annual fluidity in baseline prestige), but seems like some dynamism that would be fairly simple to introduce and would be preferable to the status quo. I know it's not perfect, but seems like it's better than what happens now. Thoughts?

I've suggested this very idea several times on these boards and usual get radio silence ... I think your post is spot on though, both the pros and cons.  At a minimum, even if it wasn't implemented, it would be interesting to see how the RL schools baselines looked today from a comparative point of view. 

Posted by gomiami1972 on 9/30/2015 7:33:00 AM (view original):
How about we eliminate baseline prestige completely.  Dumbest concept implemented for HD.  This is not What if Sports, this is Recreate Real-life Power and Prestige Sports.  I guess RRPPS did not sound as good from a marketing standpoint as did WIS.

I agree.  I'd like to see D1 prestige formulas, whatever they are, changed to mirror how prestige is handled at the D2 and D3 levels.

Posted by iwanturmind2 on 9/30/2015 8:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 9/30/2015 7:33:00 AM (view original):
How about we eliminate baseline prestige completely.  Dumbest concept implemented for HD.  This is not What if Sports, this is Recreate Real-life Power and Prestige Sports.  I guess RRPPS did not sound as good from a marketing standpoint as did WIS.

There has to be a check and balance and I feel the baseline put that in order. In any college division NCAA, NAIA, WIS there is have and have nots.  There needs to be a reason for people to move up and having Divisions and Major conferences in each makes it realistic.  If everybody is the same there would not be schools getting Nike contracts lol.  I like the baseline I just feel there should be some schools with higher baselines and a new Major Conference.  To make it more like todays CBB.

No, there does not.  The goal for WIS should be to have every DI school occupied by a paying customer.  From a business standpoint, WIS should be looking to make ALL DI schools attractive enough to pay money for.  Favoring 70-80 schools and completely destroying the playability of the other 250 equates to massive lost revenue.  This game is not about realism.  If it was, then the conference champion would be guaranteed a PIT berth among a host of other things.  This is a fantasy dynasty game...fantasy...ideas that are improbable if not impossible...

Posted by gomiami1972 on 9/30/2015 12:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by iwanturmind2 on 9/30/2015 8:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 9/30/2015 7:33:00 AM (view original):
How about we eliminate baseline prestige completely.  Dumbest concept implemented for HD.  This is not What if Sports, this is Recreate Real-life Power and Prestige Sports.  I guess RRPPS did not sound as good from a marketing standpoint as did WIS.

There has to be a check and balance and I feel the baseline put that in order. In any college division NCAA, NAIA, WIS there is have and have nots.  There needs to be a reason for people to move up and having Divisions and Major conferences in each makes it realistic.  If everybody is the same there would not be schools getting Nike contracts lol.  I like the baseline I just feel there should be some schools with higher baselines and a new Major Conference.  To make it more like todays CBB.

No, there does not.  The goal for WIS should be to have every DI school occupied by a paying customer.  From a business standpoint, WIS should be looking to make ALL DI schools attractive enough to pay money for.  Favoring 70-80 schools and completely destroying the playability of the other 250 equates to massive lost revenue.  This game is not about realism.  If it was, then the conference champion would be guaranteed a PIT berth among a host of other things.  This is a fantasy dynasty game...fantasy...ideas that are improbable if not impossible...

Definitely agree with Miami on this one.  I took over a couple of D1 mid-majors in relatively empty conferences for long periods of time just to experiment.  I pulled Loyola Chicago (don't remember which world) up to a B or B+ prestige but could get no higher; had a similar experience with another D1 school as well.  It was a vicious cycle... because of my limited recruiting pool, I couldn't get beyond the Sweet 16 at Loyola to raise my prestige; I couldn't expand my recruiting pool and recruit players to get beyond the Sweet 16 because of my prestige.

As a paying customer, if I wanted to compete for a national title my choices were:

1) Move to a school with a higher baseline prestige.
2) Recruit a bunch of other top human coaches to join the same conference and make it into a power.
3) Drop back down to D2 or D3.

The game is WAY more appealing if you can win a national title at any school; as Miami pointed out, it is a game-killer when the majority of D1 schools are only there to serve as steps on a ladder for coaches trying to eventually win it all.

As far as haves versus have-nots, they will still exist just based on the different HD coaching ability levels of the humans who take them over; they shouldn't be predetermined based solely on original Admin's perception of NCAA program prestige circa 2000.

The one big problem with this thread that makes it tough to evaluate is that WIS is not going to change the conference alignments.  seble has reiterated many times that it is just too much work for little benefit.  Not gonna happen.

Separately, baseline prestige could be changed to a moving average of the past 10 seasons (after season 20 in any world).  That way it would start the world off mirroring reality (of whatever baseline year was chosen) and dampen the impacts of a single bad season for top-tier schools.   Maybe it could even just be in effect for the first 20 seasons in any new world and then just discontinue effects or have them decline in effect over the next 10-20 seasons until they disappear.

Posted by gomiami1972 on 9/30/2015 7:33:00 AM (view original):
How about we eliminate baseline prestige completely.  Dumbest concept implemented for HD.  This is not What if Sports, this is Recreate Real-life Power and Prestige Sports.  I guess RRPPS did not sound as good from a marketing standpoint as did WIS.

i guess my objection is that is what d2/d3 are (no baseline) and i really don't see the point of having a ladder up to d1 unless there is something significantly different about d1 itself.

Posted by davis on 9/30/2015 12:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 9/30/2015 12:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by iwanturmind2 on 9/30/2015 8:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 9/30/2015 7:33:00 AM (view original):
How about we eliminate baseline prestige completely.  Dumbest concept implemented for HD.  This is not What if Sports, this is Recreate Real-life Power and Prestige Sports.  I guess RRPPS did not sound as good from a marketing standpoint as did WIS.

There has to be a check and balance and I feel the baseline put that in order. In any college division NCAA, NAIA, WIS there is have and have nots.  There needs to be a reason for people to move up and having Divisions and Major conferences in each makes it realistic.  If everybody is the same there would not be schools getting Nike contracts lol.  I like the baseline I just feel there should be some schools with higher baselines and a new Major Conference.  To make it more like todays CBB.

No, there does not.  The goal for WIS should be to have every DI school occupied by a paying customer.  From a business standpoint, WIS should be looking to make ALL DI schools attractive enough to pay money for.  Favoring 70-80 schools and completely destroying the playability of the other 250 equates to massive lost revenue.  This game is not about realism.  If it was, then the conference champion would be guaranteed a PIT berth among a host of other things.  This is a fantasy dynasty game...fantasy...ideas that are improbable if not impossible...

Definitely agree with Miami on this one.  I took over a couple of D1 mid-majors in relatively empty conferences for long periods of time just to experiment.  I pulled Loyola Chicago (don't remember which world) up to a B or B+ prestige but could get no higher; had a similar experience with another D1 school as well.  It was a vicious cycle... because of my limited recruiting pool, I couldn't get beyond the Sweet 16 at Loyola to raise my prestige; I couldn't expand my recruiting pool and recruit players to get beyond the Sweet 16 because of my prestige.

As a paying customer, if I wanted to compete for a national title my choices were:

1) Move to a school with a higher baseline prestige.
2) Recruit a bunch of other top human coaches to join the same conference and make it into a power.
3) Drop back down to D2 or D3.

The game is WAY more appealing if you can win a national title at any school; as Miami pointed out, it is a game-killer when the majority of D1 schools are only there to serve as steps on a ladder for coaches trying to eventually win it all.

As far as haves versus have-nots, they will still exist just based on the different HD coaching ability levels of the humans who take them over; they shouldn't be predetermined based solely on original Admin's perception of NCAA program prestige circa 2000.

i agree with the premise that you should be able to win a national title at any school - i disagree with the premise that you have to completely eliminate baseline prestige to make that happen.

plenty of mid major programs were highly successful, before seble's new engine release that wrecked d1 mid majors via recruit generation changes. i am all for reducing the impact of starting baseline by making it half fluid, but i think removing it altogether would be a mistake. its true you should be able to win anywhere, but its also true that carrots on a stick work. having the carrot of getting to a big conference and coaching an elite program, there is definitely value in that. having the carrot of building up your own baseline prestige over a long run, i see value in that, too. what i don't see value in is completely eliminating baseline and bringing d1 more in line with d2/d3. some coaches prefer the flat structure, some don't, and with 3 divisions, i think it would be foolish to make all 3 the same.