Posted by gillispie1 on 1/31/2016 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/30/2016 7:20:00 PM (view original):
so I sent a ticket about how this was possible, they asked what the question was, I said how is the coach still there and not fired.  they closed the ticket, I reopened it with"..." closed again, reopened with "why are you closing this?"

WIS at it's best.

that actually wasn't my point at all, a while back it would have been impossible for uk to drop to a c+. seble made a change that apparently made that possible.

my ? is, how many tickets do you have with them on firings? i'm guessing a lot? they probably felt like it was already answered (although they should have sent you a canned response at least!).

i didn't know they actually closed tickets, mine just stay open in answered form forever until i close it.

It shouldn't be impossible for ANY team to drop below any kind of "floor".  If, for instance, a Sim team got a hold of an elite program which for whatever reason no human coach would apply and then proceeded to rip off 5 or 6 0-27 seasons in a row, why should that elite school bottom out at a certain level and never go below?  The game IS supposed to be "What If", blah, blah, blah.

Posted by dcy0827 on 1/31/2016 10:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/31/2016 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/30/2016 7:20:00 PM (view original):
so I sent a ticket about how this was possible, they asked what the question was, I said how is the coach still there and not fired.  they closed the ticket, I reopened it with"..." closed again, reopened with "why are you closing this?"

WIS at it's best.

that actually wasn't my point at all, a while back it would have been impossible for uk to drop to a c+. seble made a change that apparently made that possible.

my ? is, how many tickets do you have with them on firings? i'm guessing a lot? they probably felt like it was already answered (although they should have sent you a canned response at least!).

i didn't know they actually closed tickets, mine just stay open in answered form forever until i close it.

It shouldn't be impossible for ANY team to drop below any kind of "floor".  If, for instance, a Sim team got a hold of an elite program which for whatever reason no human coach would apply and then proceeded to rip off 5 or 6 0-27 seasons in a row, why should that elite school bottom out at a certain level and never go below?  The game IS supposed to be "What If", blah, blah, blah.

I agree to there should be no floor for a sim coach and a C+ for Kentucky under a sim coach would make perfect sense heck Kentucky for some reason being sim controlled for an extended period of time should theoretically be able to drop to C-/D+ if they pull off something like 5/6 straight seasons of 4 or less losses.

However their needs to be a floor for a human coach.  Kentucky should not be able to drop to a C+ let alone probably a B- or even B under a human coach there for a period of time.

If this was real life the C+ Kentucky coach should be worried about getting lynched and hung in the center of Lexington(they still do that in KY right?)  If they don't well then he would easily be the most hated man in Kentucky.

I don't know about Kentucky pre-Calipari, but a quick look shows that since Rupp it's very easy to get fired.

• Sutton was fired after 3 seasons due to "However Sutton's tenure at Kentucky ended at the close of the 1988–89 season after a scandal and a losing record tarnished the school's basketball program."

He was 88-39 with 3 NCAA appearances in 4 seasons and an Elite 8, I assume the scandal played a major part in his firing however.

Tubby Smith

• Smith came under considerable pressure from many UK fans late in his tenure. Many fans thought that his recruiting was subpar, and felt chagrin that his teams never reached another Final Four during his tenure. Some UK fans went as far as to place "for sale" signs on his front lawn. He did come just a double overtime loss short of a Final Four appearance in 2005, losing to Tom Izzo's Michigan State Spartans. This nine year "Final Four" drought is the longest of any coach in UK history. Smith struggled to land many top recruits. In one instance he passed up McDonald's All-American Corey Brewer, saying Brewer was too skinny to play in the SEC. Brewer went on to play at Florida, and helped lead the Gators to two NCAA championships (2006 and 2007.[18]). Smith, instead, opted for the more robust Perry Stevenson.[19] That along with five double digit loss seasons (which led to Tubby's critics nicknaming him "Ten-Loss Tubby") caused the pressure to ramp up on him.[20]

Seems 263-83 record without missing a single NT is cause to get fired even with a NCAA Champ, 3 Elite 8, and 2 S16. 2 straight 2 round exits and "bad" recruiting was enough for him to get run out of town.

Billy G according to wikipedia

• The University of Kentucky's administration has continually indicated that the reasons for terminating Gillispie's employment are not related to the performance of Gillispie's teams, but rather was due to an "'incompatibility' between the school" and Gillispie which specifically manifested itself in the former coach's refusal to sign his contract since his hire two years earlier.[26]

however they were 40-27 with an NCAA 1st round and NIT Quarterfinals.

Pretty much seems like there is a floor around a B/B+ prestige for Kentucky before serious heat and fired around B-/B prestige.  A bit hard due to limited data and non HD related things such as scandals, but a C+ would absolutely get fired without a doubt considering there wasn't even "success" at the best point there.

Arizona was down to C+ when I took it over in smith not too long ago

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/31/2016 11:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dcy0827 on 1/31/2016 10:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/31/2016 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/30/2016 7:20:00 PM (view original):
so I sent a ticket about how this was possible, they asked what the question was, I said how is the coach still there and not fired.  they closed the ticket, I reopened it with"..." closed again, reopened with "why are you closing this?"

WIS at it's best.

that actually wasn't my point at all, a while back it would have been impossible for uk to drop to a c+. seble made a change that apparently made that possible.

my ? is, how many tickets do you have with them on firings? i'm guessing a lot? they probably felt like it was already answered (although they should have sent you a canned response at least!).

i didn't know they actually closed tickets, mine just stay open in answered form forever until i close it.

It shouldn't be impossible for ANY team to drop below any kind of "floor".  If, for instance, a Sim team got a hold of an elite program which for whatever reason no human coach would apply and then proceeded to rip off 5 or 6 0-27 seasons in a row, why should that elite school bottom out at a certain level and never go below?  The game IS supposed to be "What If", blah, blah, blah.

I agree to there should be no floor for a sim coach and a C+ for Kentucky under a sim coach would make perfect sense heck Kentucky for some reason being sim controlled for an extended period of time should theoretically be able to drop to C-/D+ if they pull off something like 5/6 straight seasons of 4 or less losses.

However their needs to be a floor for a human coach.  Kentucky should not be able to drop to a C+ let alone probably a B- or even B under a human coach there for a period of time.

If this was real life the C+ Kentucky coach should be worried about getting lynched and hung in the center of Lexington(they still do that in KY right?)  If they don't well then he would easily be the most hated man in Kentucky.

I don't know about Kentucky pre-Calipari, but a quick look shows that since Rupp it's very easy to get fired.

• Sutton was fired after 3 seasons due to "However Sutton's tenure at Kentucky ended at the close of the 1988–89 season after a scandal and a losing record tarnished the school's basketball program."

He was 88-39 with 3 NCAA appearances in 4 seasons and an Elite 8, I assume the scandal played a major part in his firing however.

Tubby Smith

• Smith came under considerable pressure from many UK fans late in his tenure. Many fans thought that his recruiting was subpar, and felt chagrin that his teams never reached another Final Four during his tenure. Some UK fans went as far as to place "for sale" signs on his front lawn. He did come just a double overtime loss short of a Final Four appearance in 2005, losing to Tom Izzo's Michigan State Spartans. This nine year "Final Four" drought is the longest of any coach in UK history. Smith struggled to land many top recruits. In one instance he passed up McDonald's All-American Corey Brewer, saying Brewer was too skinny to play in the SEC. Brewer went on to play at Florida, and helped lead the Gators to two NCAA championships (2006 and 2007.[18]). Smith, instead, opted for the more robust Perry Stevenson.[19] That along with five double digit loss seasons (which led to Tubby's critics nicknaming him "Ten-Loss Tubby") caused the pressure to ramp up on him.[20]

Seems 263-83 record without missing a single NT is cause to get fired even with a NCAA Champ, 3 Elite 8, and 2 S16. 2 straight 2 round exits and "bad" recruiting was enough for him to get run out of town.

Billy G according to wikipedia

• The University of Kentucky's administration has continually indicated that the reasons for terminating Gillispie's employment are not related to the performance of Gillispie's teams, but rather was due to an "'incompatibility' between the school" and Gillispie which specifically manifested itself in the former coach's refusal to sign his contract since his hire two years earlier.[26]

however they were 40-27 with an NCAA 1st round and NIT Quarterfinals.

Pretty much seems like there is a floor around a B/B+ prestige for Kentucky before serious heat and fired around B-/B prestige.  A bit hard due to limited data and non HD related things such as scandals, but a C+ would absolutely get fired without a doubt considering there wasn't even "success" at the best point there.

tubby stayed too long. that 98 team win was a miracle, they'd suck all game, in the NT, then for the last 5-10 minutes they'd run on offense and press on D like they did under pitino. they were called the "comeback cats" that year, that was the story of the NT, they came back by ~15 against duke in the elite 8 and had a couple other ~15 point comebacks. from our end, we wondered, why didn't they play like that all game? seemed like they basically won in spite of tubby. still, he gets some credit, some time to get things done. they did well (e8) in 99 but then started to suck with his own played. he got unlucky when bogans got injured in the NT and they played marquette with dwayne wade in the elite 8, that was ok, but tough.

i think the downfall for tubby in the fan's eyes was in 03 when we pulled the #1 overall seed. we had like 6 great players, including some super energy players who weren't really super stars by talent like chunk hayes (who i loved). we played UAB in the 2nd round. erik daniels got in early foul trouble, and when he was out, UAB was killing it inside. daniels would go back in, to stop the bleeding, and we'd start winning. tubby felt better, pulled him out, got wrecked again. this repeated a couple times until you basically wanted to reach through the screen and scream to tubby to take a chance, let him play, we can't let this game go on like this. of course, we get down to like 4 minutes, losing, daniels goes back in, and we end up barely losing. you can't let it be that close that late, not with a scrappy team playing hard, you can always lose that. drove me crazy. tubby had a chance for redemption a couple years later against MSU in that elite 8, but a great elite 8 loss at that time, wasn't enough to save him. when he pushed hard and pulled a #1 class, with rajon rondo and crawford and bradley, i think morris too same class, it was like ok... this is DEFINITELY his last chance. they did nothing. he had to go, he had plenty of chances.

billyg theres really nothing to say, i think everyone agreed he had to go, and it had little to do with on the court issues. any school would have been insane to allow that to continue. edit: it really centered on his inappropriate treatment of his players. also, he was not the ambassador of the school/state that you are required to be as the coach of UK, it just didn't work on too many levels. i was obviously (by all my IDs being named for him) pretty excited when coach gillispie took over, but, that was really misplaced. i was excited that tubby was gone, that was much of it, but i also had high hopes for gillispie, his hard working style, he seemed like he could work.

i think it was pretty clearly demonstrated that UK made the right call, by the future tubby and gillispie had after they left kentucky. i know people like to say UK fans are crazy for wanting tubby out, but minnesota fans wanted him out after a while there too... and there is a pretty big difference between the golden gophers and the wildcats. 

Posted by bathtubhippo on 2/1/2016 8:59:00 AM (view original):
Arizona was down to C+ when I took it over in smith not too long ago

Arizona State is B baseline.  the same drop from A+ to C+ would be similar to going from B to D prestige.

Posted by gillispie1 on 2/1/2016 11:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/31/2016 11:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dcy0827 on 1/31/2016 10:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/31/2016 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/30/2016 7:20:00 PM (view original):
so I sent a ticket about how this was possible, they asked what the question was, I said how is the coach still there and not fired.  they closed the ticket, I reopened it with"..." closed again, reopened with "why are you closing this?"

WIS at it's best.

that actually wasn't my point at all, a while back it would have been impossible for uk to drop to a c+. seble made a change that apparently made that possible.

my ? is, how many tickets do you have with them on firings? i'm guessing a lot? they probably felt like it was already answered (although they should have sent you a canned response at least!).

i didn't know they actually closed tickets, mine just stay open in answered form forever until i close it.

It shouldn't be impossible for ANY team to drop below any kind of "floor".  If, for instance, a Sim team got a hold of an elite program which for whatever reason no human coach would apply and then proceeded to rip off 5 or 6 0-27 seasons in a row, why should that elite school bottom out at a certain level and never go below?  The game IS supposed to be "What If", blah, blah, blah.

I agree to there should be no floor for a sim coach and a C+ for Kentucky under a sim coach would make perfect sense heck Kentucky for some reason being sim controlled for an extended period of time should theoretically be able to drop to C-/D+ if they pull off something like 5/6 straight seasons of 4 or less losses.

However their needs to be a floor for a human coach.  Kentucky should not be able to drop to a C+ let alone probably a B- or even B under a human coach there for a period of time.

If this was real life the C+ Kentucky coach should be worried about getting lynched and hung in the center of Lexington(they still do that in KY right?)  If they don't well then he would easily be the most hated man in Kentucky.

I don't know about Kentucky pre-Calipari, but a quick look shows that since Rupp it's very easy to get fired.

• Sutton was fired after 3 seasons due to "However Sutton's tenure at Kentucky ended at the close of the 1988–89 season after a scandal and a losing record tarnished the school's basketball program."

He was 88-39 with 3 NCAA appearances in 4 seasons and an Elite 8, I assume the scandal played a major part in his firing however.

Tubby Smith

• Smith came under considerable pressure from many UK fans late in his tenure. Many fans thought that his recruiting was subpar, and felt chagrin that his teams never reached another Final Four during his tenure. Some UK fans went as far as to place "for sale" signs on his front lawn. He did come just a double overtime loss short of a Final Four appearance in 2005, losing to Tom Izzo's Michigan State Spartans. This nine year "Final Four" drought is the longest of any coach in UK history. Smith struggled to land many top recruits. In one instance he passed up McDonald's All-American Corey Brewer, saying Brewer was too skinny to play in the SEC. Brewer went on to play at Florida, and helped lead the Gators to two NCAA championships (2006 and 2007.[18]). Smith, instead, opted for the more robust Perry Stevenson.[19] That along with five double digit loss seasons (which led to Tubby's critics nicknaming him "Ten-Loss Tubby") caused the pressure to ramp up on him.[20]

Seems 263-83 record without missing a single NT is cause to get fired even with a NCAA Champ, 3 Elite 8, and 2 S16. 2 straight 2 round exits and "bad" recruiting was enough for him to get run out of town.

Billy G according to wikipedia

• The University of Kentucky's administration has continually indicated that the reasons for terminating Gillispie's employment are not related to the performance of Gillispie's teams, but rather was due to an "'incompatibility' between the school" and Gillispie which specifically manifested itself in the former coach's refusal to sign his contract since his hire two years earlier.[26]

however they were 40-27 with an NCAA 1st round and NIT Quarterfinals.

Pretty much seems like there is a floor around a B/B+ prestige for Kentucky before serious heat and fired around B-/B prestige.  A bit hard due to limited data and non HD related things such as scandals, but a C+ would absolutely get fired without a doubt considering there wasn't even "success" at the best point there.

tubby stayed too long. that 98 team win was a miracle, they'd suck all game, in the NT, then for the last 5-10 minutes they'd run on offense and press on D like they did under pitino. they were called the "comeback cats" that year, that was the story of the NT, they came back by ~15 against duke in the elite 8 and had a couple other ~15 point comebacks. from our end, we wondered, why didn't they play like that all game? seemed like they basically won in spite of tubby. still, he gets some credit, some time to get things done. they did well (e8) in 99 but then started to suck with his own played. he got unlucky when bogans got injured in the NT and they played marquette with dwayne wade in the elite 8, that was ok, but tough.

i think the downfall for tubby in the fan's eyes was in 03 when we pulled the #1 overall seed. we had like 6 great players, including some super energy players who weren't really super stars by talent like chunk hayes (who i loved). we played UAB in the 2nd round. erik daniels got in early foul trouble, and when he was out, UAB was killing it inside. daniels would go back in, to stop the bleeding, and we'd start winning. tubby felt better, pulled him out, got wrecked again. this repeated a couple times until you basically wanted to reach through the screen and scream to tubby to take a chance, let him play, we can't let this game go on like this. of course, we get down to like 4 minutes, losing, daniels goes back in, and we end up barely losing. you can't let it be that close that late, not with a scrappy team playing hard, you can always lose that. drove me crazy. tubby had a chance for redemption a couple years later against MSU in that elite 8, but a great elite 8 loss at that time, wasn't enough to save him. when he pushed hard and pulled a #1 class, with rajon rondo and crawford and bradley, i think morris too same class, it was like ok... this is DEFINITELY his last chance. they did nothing. he had to go, he had plenty of chances.

billyg theres really nothing to say, i think everyone agreed he had to go, and it had little to do with on the court issues. any school would have been insane to allow that to continue. edit: it really centered on his inappropriate treatment of his players. also, he was not the ambassador of the school/state that you are required to be as the coach of UK, it just didn't work on too many levels. i was obviously (by all my IDs being named for him) pretty excited when coach gillispie took over, but, that was really misplaced. i was excited that tubby was gone, that was much of it, but i also had high hopes for gillispie, his hard working style, he seemed like he could work.

i think it was pretty clearly demonstrated that UK made the right call, by the future tubby and gillispie had after they left kentucky. i know people like to say UK fans are crazy for wanting tubby out, but minnesota fans wanted him out after a while there too... and there is a pretty big difference between the golden gophers and the wildcats. 

Tubby Smith is a proven winner, he just plays a very unfriendly brand of basketball for most fans.  He's more of a grind it out, defense first kind of coach and it seems that most fans (of every school really) would rather see an up and down, fast paced, lots of points kind of game.  And while he's a proven winner, I also personally think that his ceiling is right around a Sweet Sixteen, possibly Elite Eight with a break or two, level coach.  I think that it's mostly because of the kind of players that he likes to recruit and unfortunately for him, those type players are a notch below the elites.  Were I the AD of a school needing a basketball coach, I wouldn't hesitate to give the man a call.  He seems to run a clean program, he's a winner, keeps himself and his players out of the news for the wrong reasons, and certainly appears to be a stand up kind of guy.  You could certainly do a lot worse.

If someone goes from A+ to C+ prestige, they'd be fired in real life. Hands down, no questions asked.

Heck, some teams maintain that level A prestige and still fire a coach for consecutive bad seasons. The fact that no one ever seems to get fired in WiS, takes away the fun of things a little. THe fact that a guy can maintain a team like UK, after dropping to a C+ prestige is a sad thing. I wont ever be going to DI under this design of HD. 

 

Posted by the0nlyis on 2/1/2016 12:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bathtubhippo on 2/1/2016 8:59:00 AM (view original):
Arizona was down to C+ when I took it over in smith not too long ago

Arizona State is B baseline.  the same drop from A+ to C+ would be similar to going from B to D prestige.

But Arizona, where he coaches, is an A+ baseline.

because the quoting is getting way too long -

emy - i agree that tubby is a good coach, and an excellent person. he does a great job in the "ambassador" for the university role, and always did right by kentucky in that regard. i have no animosity towards him, always root for him since he left, and am always glad when he stops back for a visit. he just doesn't win big enough to be the coach of kentucky, that was the problem. i agree with you on the play style, but if you win big, you can get away with that. he just doesn't win big enough to get away with that.

tubby's career at minnesota wasn't bad, he's just well paid for the kind of success he brought, a round 2 and two round 1 losses. so far at texas tech, he hasn't made any progress, but he also deserves a bit more time there. he never made it past the sweet 16 prior to taking the kentucky job, although, he did have a pretty impressive resume at tulsa. long story short, yes, i agree, hes a proven winner. just not a big enough of a winner. the play style thing is secondary, and his qualities as a person do make up for a good amount. of course, you could do worse. however, kentucky is the premier program in college basketball, and comes with huge advantages. we expect a top 5 coach, and that, he clearly is not. with all the advantages of kentucky, to miss out on being a team of the decade in the 2000s (for the first time ever) says it all. even a top 20 coach you'd expect to be able to keep UK in the top 10. he had to go... nothing against him, just not successful enough. i don't believe duke or north carolina would have been happy with him, either.

Posted by acn24 on 2/1/2016 2:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 2/1/2016 12:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bathtubhippo on 2/1/2016 8:59:00 AM (view original):
Arizona was down to C+ when I took it over in smith not too long ago

Arizona State is B baseline.  the same drop from A+ to C+ would be similar to going from B to D prestige.

But Arizona, where he coaches, is an A+ baseline.

read that wong then lol.

looks like he took over at C+ prestige as well.  thats just the sims fault. as the ecruits he brought in were talented.

Posted by gillispie1 on 2/1/2016 2:53:00 PM (view original):
because the quoting is getting way too long -

emy - i agree that tubby is a good coach, and an excellent person. he does a great job in the "ambassador" for the university role, and always did right by kentucky in that regard. i have no animosity towards him, always root for him since he left, and am always glad when he stops back for a visit. he just doesn't win big enough to be the coach of kentucky, that was the problem. i agree with you on the play style, but if you win big, you can get away with that. he just doesn't win big enough to get away with that.

tubby's career at minnesota wasn't bad, he's just well paid for the kind of success he brought, a round 2 and two round 1 losses. so far at texas tech, he hasn't made any progress, but he also deserves a bit more time there. he never made it past the sweet 16 prior to taking the kentucky job, although, he did have a pretty impressive resume at tulsa. long story short, yes, i agree, hes a proven winner. just not a big enough of a winner. the play style thing is secondary, and his qualities as a person do make up for a good amount. of course, you could do worse. however, kentucky is the premier program in college basketball, and comes with huge advantages. we expect a top 5 coach, and that, he clearly is not. with all the advantages of kentucky, to miss out on being a team of the decade in the 2000s (for the first time ever) says it all. even a top 20 coach you'd expect to be able to keep UK in the top 10. he had to go... nothing against him, just not successful enough. i don't believe duke or north carolina would have been happy with him, either.

I would say that Kentucky is one of the premier programs in the country, but you can make arguments for a handful of others as well.  UK is "one" of the NCAA's blue blood programs, no doubt, but I don't believe that they are so far ahead of everyone else that they can be called, without a doubt, "the" premier program.  I'm curious as to what advantages you feel UK has that, say, Duke or North Carolina, Kansas or UCLA, or maybe Louisville or UConn don't have?  As much as I hate to say it, because I despise this team almost as much as I detest UNC or Kentucky, but Kansas can very arguably claim more "history" in college basketball than any other program.  Rock, chalk, chicken hawks...

Not sure what you mean by missing out on being a team of the decade in the 2000's for the first time ever.  Can you elaborate because I'm a bit confused by that statement?

Oh, and I said above that Tubby, while a proven winner, didn't win big enough for the fans at UK as his "ceiling" as a coach seems to be about the Sweet Sixteen, with maybe an Elite Eight with a couple of breaks along the way.  So yes, we're in agreement there.

well, sports illustrated and many others publish team of the decade rankings... which to me is a pretty good mark of a program. i've never seen one with UK in the top 10 for the 2000s. its been a long time since i tried to dig back into historical, but no other period i found was kentucky left off. maybe a somewhat arbitrary measure, but i think its safe to say uk was NOT one of the premier programs in the 2000s, top 10 would be a stretch, and that's mostly on tubby.

i agree, you could make an argument for a few others. i never liked the UCLA argument, being amazing for 15 years under special circumstances and then just being good for all the rest of time, i just don't see it. i would not put UCLA above UNC for sure and not some others. UNC has a bit of a special argument in having the head to head winning record on every other elite program. i do agree kansas is a special program, nobody will ever take away that they are the history of basketball, with naismith founding the game, allen and rupp both being naismith disciples, etc.

i guess the difference between UK and others to me is the consistency of greatness over time. rupp remains one of a few all time greats, at the end of the rupp period, kentucky was probably the gold standard. in the post-rupp period, kentucky is easily one of the best, too, with 4 titles between 4 coaches. no program has nearly as many championship winning coaches as kentucky (5) - proving its kentucky, not a single coach. does any other program have more than 2? duke, i struggle with, outside of coach K, they were one of the good programs in basketball, but not one of the great ones. don't get me wrong - they were definitely very good before K, i don't think its only K. but he has all 5 titles, that has to count for something. unc i think has the best argument after kentucky, they've been great for a really long time, smith is legendary, they've been great under williams, #3 all time in wins, 5 championships, i believe #1 in final fours (maybe dropped recently to duke not sure). louisville.. i like lousiville, i *try* to make an argument that they are in the same category as a duke, but its tough. 3 titles, 2 great coaches, i think like 5th or 6th all time in s16s... definitely one of the games' greats, but compared to kentucky? hard for even a louisville fan. uconn has 1 coach and not much else. great coach, great program, but not kentucky.

so, to me, i do think a ucla fan could argue ucla just on titles, but i don't buy it, being the gold standard requires longevity. duke and lousiville and uconn don't have the long term dominance. kansas and unc do, but the height of greatness doesn't match UK, with 8 titles and 5 title winning coaches. so, that is my position. ill steal this from wikipedia because they capture it better than me, this extent of dominance in the stats just cannot be met by anyone else. i will admit a handful of those stats are just stupid, like championship coaches in a decade, 1, rank #1.... yeah, ok. UK fans are a bit overzealous, yes. lot of meat in there in the part about wins and appearances in the NT and all NT rounds.

edit: note that really, in general, i don't think there is generally a CLEAR winner in most sports (F the yankees) and i generally take no exceptions to fans of reasonable programs taking the stance their team is the best. its only in fan-nature, i don't intend or pretend to be unbias.

• All Time Wins: 2193 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• All Time Winning Percentage: .764 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• NCAA Championships: 8 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[99]
• NCAA Championship Game Appearances: 12 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• NCAA Final Four Appearances: 17 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[99]
• NCAA Final Four Games Played: 28 (NCAA rank No. 3)^[99]
• NCAA Final Four Wins: 20 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[99]
• NCAA Final Four Winning Percentage: .715 (NCAA rank No. 8)^[99]
• NCAA Elite-8 Appearances: 36 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• NCAA Sweet-16 Appearances: 41 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[3]
• NCAA Tournament Appearances: 54 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• NCAA Tournament Games Played: 168 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• NCAA Tournament Wins: 120 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• NCAA Tournament Winning Percentage: .719 (NCAA rank No. 4)^[99]
• Total Postseason Tournament Appearances (NCAA and NIT): 63 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• NBA Draft Picks: 110 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[17]
• All-Americans: 57 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[100]
• All-American Total Selections: 87 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[100]
• First Team Consensus All-Americans: 20 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[101]
• First Team Consensus All-American Total Selections: 25 (NCAA rank No.2)^[101]
• AP Poll Top-20/25 Weeks Ranked All Time: 825 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[102]
• AP Poll Top-10 Weeks Ranked All Time: 653 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[102]
• AP Poll Top-5 Weeks Ranked All Time: 441 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[102]
• AP Poll No. 1 Weeks Ranked All Time: 120 (NCAA rank No. 3)^[102]
• Final AP Poll Top-25 Finishes: 49 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Final AP Poll Top-20 Finishes: 49 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Final AP Poll Top-15 Finishes: 44 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Final AP Poll Top-10 Finishes: 40 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Final AP Poll Top-5 Finishes: 29 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Final AP Poll No. 1 Finishes: 10 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• All Time Winning Percentage Against AP-Ranked Opponents: .615 (NCAA Rank No. 1)^[98]
• Final UPI/Coaches' Poll Top-25 Finishes: 47 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Final UPI/Coaches' Poll Top-20 Finishes: 46 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Final UPI/Coaches' Poll Top-15 Finishes: 43 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Final UPI/Coaches' Poll Top-10 Finishes: 39 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Final UPI/Coaches' Poll Top-5 Finishes: 30 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Final UPI/Coaches' Poll No. 1 Finishes: 8 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Total 20-Win Seasons: 59 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[101]
• Total 25-Win Seasons: 33 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[101]
• Total 30-Win Seasons: 14 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[101]
• Total 35-Win Seasons: 6 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[101]
• Average Victories Per Season Played: 19.4464285714(NCAA rank No. 3)^[98]
• Average Losses Per Season Played: 6.0 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Total Winning Seasons: 95 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[101]
• Total Non-Losing Seasons (.500 or better): 98 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[101]
• Total Undefeated Seasons: 2 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[98]
• Total Head Coaches With a NCAA Championship: 5 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• Total Head Coaches With Multiple NCAA Championships: 1 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[99]
• Total Head Coaches With Multiple NCAA Championships in the Same Decade: 1 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• Total Head Coaches With a NCAA Championship Game Appearance: 5 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• Total Head Coaches With Multiple NCAA Championship Game Appearances: 4 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• Total Head Coaches With Multiple NCAA Championship Game Appearances in the Same Decade: 4 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• Total Head Coaches With a NCAA Final Four Appearance: 5 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[99]
• Total Head Coaches With Multiple NCAA Final Four Appearances: 4 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[99]
• Total Head Coaches With Multiple NCAA Final Four Appearances in the Same Decade: 4 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• Total Head Coaches With Both NCAA and NIT Championships: 2 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Total Decades With a NCAA Championship: 5 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• Total Decades With Multiple NCAA Championships: 3 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• Total Decades With a NCAA Championship Game Appearance: 6 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[99]
• Total Decades With Multiple NCAA Championship Game Appearances: 5 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• Total Decades With a NCAA Final Four Appearance: 7 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• Total Decades With Multiple NCAA Final Four Appearances: 5 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[99]
• Total Decades No. 1 in Total Wins (since 1930): 1 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[98]
• Total Decades Top-5 in Total Wins (since 1930): 4 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Total Decades Top-10 in Total Wins (since 1930): 7 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Total Decades No. 1 in Winning Percentage (since 1930): 2 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Total Decades Top-5 in Winning Percentage (since 1930): 6 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Total Decades Top-10 in Winning Percentage (since 1930): 7 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]
• Conference Regular Season Championships: 48 (NCAA rank No. 2)^[3]
• Conference Tournament Championships: 29 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[3]
• National Attendance Titles: 25 (NCAA rank No. 1)^[98]

gillespie1, I think you just settled any debate before it starts with your masterful post.  You have made a believer out of me.

But allow me, if you will, to pick a few nits.  First, be careful how you devalue the accomplishments of some of the other programs.  "i never liked the UCLA argument, being amazing for 15 years under special circumstances"  What you call special circumstances some would call a period with a coach among the top handful ever to coach college basketball.  You surely give full credit for KY's great coaches; allow others to take credit for theirs.  Secondly, some might say that UCLA succeeds despite the special circumstance they face, that being the plethora of athletic opportunities available year 'round to young men and women in the southern California area.  Many who might have played basketball do some other sport.

Finally, don't forget perhaps the greatest special circumstance of all, the huge amount of rabid quality prep basketball programs throughout KY and southern Indiana.  Certainly Kentucky, Louisville and arguably a few other schools benefit tremendoiusly from that force.

Kentucky-UNC-UCLA-Indiana-Duke

Posted by CoachSpud on 2/1/2016 7:08:00 PM (view original):
gillespie1, I think you just settled any debate before it starts with your masterful post.  You have made a believer out of me.

But allow me, if you will, to pick a few nits.  First, be careful how you devalue the accomplishments of some of the other programs.  "i never liked the UCLA argument, being amazing for 15 years under special circumstances"  What you call special circumstances some would call a period with a coach among the top handful ever to coach college basketball.  You surely give full credit for KY's great coaches; allow others to take credit for theirs.  Secondly, some might say that UCLA succeeds despite the special circumstance they face, that being the plethora of athletic opportunities available year 'round to young men and women in the southern California area.  Many who might have played basketball do some other sport.

Finally, don't forget perhaps the greatest special circumstance of all, the huge amount of rabid quality prep basketball programs throughout KY and southern Indiana.  Certainly Kentucky, Louisville and arguably a few other schools benefit tremendoiusly from that force.

agreed - the special circumstances primarily revolve around them having arguably the best basketball coach of all time, at any level. calling that special circumstances was not meant to diminish that. the whole sam gilbert thing, as part of the special circumstances, maybe diminishes it a little. i'm not convinced that what gilbert did at the time, was really worse than what the other schools were doing. however, i'm definitely not convinced it wasn't worse, either. i mean, taken on its own - by today's standards - it's pretty bad. but, back then, obviously he wasn't the only one. was it widespread, giving players so much to play, or was it not normally of that scale, i really don't know that.

i probably shouldn't say special circumstances there, but the 15 season run of greatness surrounded by a lot of time of just goodness is the big thing to me. IMO, the mark of a great historical program, in any sport, is success across multiple eras, multiple coaches, which allows an argument that the program itself is truly special, truly a dynasty, not just the product of one special individual or collection of individuals. that is what i was getting at, there's no doubt, UCLA was the most dominant ever for a stretch, not even close, its really amazing. i just think it takes more than one incredible set of individuals, over a relatively short stretch, to make a historical tier 1 dynasty.