I want to know what you guys think. I had a solid team and it seems my offense never clicked.

If you haven't read this thread--give it a look.

you recruit pretty much the exact opposite of what you need, you recruit a fastbreak offense and try to get them to play a triangle.

The way I look at it, if I understand what I was missing, is that you need more than one HIGH LP, more than ONE HIGH PER... So you need a lot of players to be good offensively. I can understand I did not recruit for Triangle, but come on, shooting .357, scoring 44 pts while you have really good players is giving too much importance in the triangle set.

you had one guy starting with over 50 passing and you have really 2 decnt lp/per guys who didnt get the ball.

you may have good players but in the triangle no they are not good players in my mind, you got to the s16 running the wrong sytem thats not bad

The0nly nailed it. You only have a few players who are average or better offensive players outside FB, one isn't a scorer, one started and didn't get the ball much, and two came off the bench and didn't take a lot of shots.

I had the distro really high on the LP guy. He did not shoot for some reason. We was the highest and it ended up that my SG took 16 shots. Why? No idea. But I will recruit differently for sure now.

the same players innthe fb/press or even flex/press probably competr for a f4 or farther. no need tomchamge recruiting just change off/def

i think triangle is the wealkest offense at d3

That's an excellent D3 team! It compares favorably against my NCCU team. Sad. I have recruited poorly, but that's a triangle/m2m team as well... it has some of the same issues. Defensively, it's great to have ATH & DEF. However, in the triangle, the ATH doesn't help the offense very much (maybe ATH/LP, but less so otherwise). The key stat lines to look at are AST/TO: Tranny = 13.4 / 13.0 & NCCU = 13.6 / 14.5. Those ratios are indicating a problem.

the0nly has the right advice. Without changing anything else, a D3 team with avg 66 ATH & DEF and 80+ Stam should be running FB/m2m (IMHO). That would be extremely difficult to handle. Individually, Micah Cameron and Roger Wiley were under-utilized. With triangle & m2m, you can barely get the 12th player off the bench. So, better to redshirt a guy like Baker than let him languish on the bench.

If you stick with triangle, then you (and I too) need to take seriously getting "skill" players and passers.

Yeah. I think all your advices help. I need to get my passing higher at key positions. Get the right combo of guards with skills. I had a slasher as a scorer which probably did not help me out in key situations. I did use Wiley a lot, he just did not play that much during the game. No idea why. Micah is my back-up but will be there next season. We had a stellar defensive game, but scoring and TOS were a problem all season. I will figure this out and think differently. I normally run motion-man to man or motion-press. It needs ajustments.

I started at C- so I did not have all the options I needed. Now, I should be able to pull down better player and hope to get to A-.

Posted by rogelio on 4/13/2016 12:29:00 PM (view original):
That's an excellent D3 team! It compares favorably against my NCCU team. Sad. I have recruited poorly, but that's a triangle/m2m team as well... it has some of the same issues. Defensively, it's great to have ATH & DEF. However, in the triangle, the ATH doesn't help the offense very much (maybe ATH/LP, but less so otherwise). The key stat lines to look at are AST/TO: Tranny = 13.4 / 13.0 & NCCU = 13.6 / 14.5. Those ratios are indicating a problem.

the0nly has the right advice. Without changing anything else, a D3 team with avg 66 ATH & DEF and 80+ Stam should be running FB/m2m (IMHO). That would be extremely difficult to handle. Individually, Micah Cameron and Roger Wiley were under-utilized. With triangle & m2m, you can barely get the 12th player off the bench. So, better to redshirt a guy like Baker than let him languish on the bench.

If you stick with triangle, then you (and I too) need to take seriously getting "skill" players and passers.

why FB/Man instead of FB/Press at D3?

That is a great defensive team, so that will make you look really good in the regular season. Once you start playing the best of the best and they start gameplanning, you need a little more balance. Like some people said, if you ran the fastbreak, you'd probably be looking at a great team there. So I guess you just have to decide whether you want to change the players you look for or change systems.

I really like the triangle offense because it lets you take the best advantage of your best offensive players. Some guys have been successful basically saying, "ok, I'm always going to have an SG and a PF who are big scorers," or something along those lines, and consistently recruiting guys with SPD/ATH/LP/BH for the 4 and SPD/PER/BH for the 2 to cycle through scorers at those spots. Others (like me) are happy to just recruit the scorers we see when we see them and be able to take some guys who are all defense and guard skills or all defense and REB. But if you want to take the approach where you basically target ATH/SPD/DEF in all your recruits and everything else is basically gravy - and some coaches have a TON of success with that kind of plan, maybe the most success of anybody at the D3 level - you should run something else. There's nothing wrong with that. I wanted so badly to win a title at Rochester in Knight running the zone defense and I could never pull it off. I'm not a great recruiter, I know this. Gameplanning and team building are my strengths. Running zone requires fewer and better quality players, so it requires in a lot of ways more dedicated recruiting to bring in the studs you need to win with that system. I couldn't do it. Eventually I gave up. There's no shame in it.

Ok, there's a little shame.

Posted by dahsdebater on 4/13/2016 2:48:00 PM (view original):
That is a great defensive team, so that will make you look really good in the regular season. Once you start playing the best of the best and they start gameplanning, you need a little more balance. Like some people said, if you ran the fastbreak, you'd probably be looking at a great team there. So I guess you just have to decide whether you want to change the players you look for or change systems.

I really like the triangle offense because it lets you take the best advantage of your best offensive players. Some guys have been successful basically saying, "ok, I'm always going to have an SG and a PF who are big scorers," or something along those lines, and consistently recruiting guys with SPD/ATH/LP/BH for the 4 and SPD/PER/BH for the 2 to cycle through scorers at those spots. Others (like me) are happy to just recruit the scorers we see when we see them and be able to take some guys who are all defense and guard skills or all defense and REB. But if you want to take the approach where you basically target ATH/SPD/DEF in all your recruits and everything else is basically gravy - and some coaches have a TON of success with that kind of plan, maybe the most success of anybody at the D3 level - you should run something else. There's nothing wrong with that. I wanted so badly to win a title at Rochester in Knight running the zone defense and I could never pull it off. I'm not a great recruiter, I know this. Gameplanning and team building are my strengths. Running zone requires fewer and better quality players, so it requires in a lot of ways more dedicated recruiting to bring in the studs you need to win with that system. I couldn't do it. Eventually I gave up. There's no shame in it.

Ok, there's a little shame.

+1 for admiting shame!

Posted by zorzii on 4/13/2016 9:19:00 AM (view original):
I want to know what you guys think. I had a solid team and it seems my offense never clicked.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with triangle offense! its a great set. the two greatest d2/d3 programs of all time ran triangle (triangle/press, in fact).

the problem with your offense, i think, is fairly simple. i would not expect your team to be very good, offensively. you have a very good team overall - killer defense, strong reb in enough players, enough guard skills... i guess really only your defense is top tier, its incredible defense, but sharing that wealth around the other areas, would be useful. i think your reb is still good though and your guard skills wouldn't hurt you, but basically i would expect your offense to hold you back significantly - so i just am saying, i think the results are in line with expectations.

in this game, 3 point shooting is generally the most efficient form of offense, and i believe that is especially true in d3. having great lp scoring is not nearly as valuable as having great per scoring. you only have 1 quality perimeter scorer on the whole team - which is a major problem. making it worse, you only have him at 6.3ppg! he should have been in the 20ppg ball park, for how badly you needed his offense. so, you had a major team composition problem, and failed to compensate at all through game planning - in fact, you made it worse!

i figure you want to really understand the problem here, and its a very important topic, so i just gave it to you straight... no offense intended! it is a great team but what is really involved IMO in going over the hump from a good to a great coach, is being able to understand the game (your team, game matchups, everything) in its different components. so i think it is important that you understand that 1) the marginal returns of a couple great scorers is the greatest return you can get in this game - making not having them, incredibly hard to overcome - which means your team was not nearly as good as it looks, at a glance, and 2) that per scorers are the most efficient offensive players, and 3) that you really misplayed your offense by having the one guy who could partially bail you out, only take 6 ppg.

whoever is talking about you playing the fastbreak with this team, and being a lot better, is right. you can get away without 3 point scoring in fastbreak, and to a lesser extent, motion, but not triangle or flex. whoever said flex might get you a lot further, i have no idea why they said that, but whatever the reason, that's not true at all. but playing fastbreak, and to a lesser extent, motion, you rely more on those ath/spd ratings, and can draw more fouls - which means you can get to a decent place without the super efficient 3 point scoring that almost all great d1/d2/d3 teams in the whole game are sporting. foul shots are actually the most efficient form of offense, but players generally cannot take enough to make up for not shooting 3s. in fb, you sort of can, and if you add in the added benefit of causing more foul trouble, it can roughly even out (you still will never be as efficient offensively as a top notch 3 point shooting club).

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/13/2016 7:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 4/13/2016 9:19:00 AM (view original):
I want to know what you guys think. I had a solid team and it seems my offense never clicked.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with triangle offense! its a great set. the two greatest d2/d3 programs of all time ran triangle (triangle/press, in fact).

the problem with your offense, i think, is fairly simple. i would not expect your team to be very good, offensively. you have a very good team overall - killer defense, strong reb in enough players, enough guard skills... i guess really only your defense is top tier, its incredible defense, but sharing that wealth around the other areas, would be useful. i think your reb is still good though and your guard skills wouldn't hurt you, but basically i would expect your offense to hold you back significantly - so i just am saying, i think the results are in line with expectations.

in this game, 3 point shooting is generally the most efficient form of offense, and i believe that is especially true in d3. having great lp scoring is not nearly as valuable as having great per scoring. you only have 1 quality perimeter scorer on the whole team - which is a major problem. making it worse, you only have him at 6.3ppg! he should have been in the 20ppg ball park, for how badly you needed his offense. so, you had a major team composition problem, and failed to compensate at all through game planning - in fact, you made it worse!

i figure you want to really understand the problem here, and its a very important topic, so i just gave it to you straight... no offense intended! it is a great team but what is really involved IMO in going over the hump from a good to a great coach, is being able to understand the game (your team, game matchups, everything) in its different components. so i think it is important that you understand that 1) the marginal returns of a couple great scorers is the greatest return you can get in this game - making not having them, incredibly hard to overcome - which means your team was not nearly as good as it looks, at a glance, and 2) that per scorers are the most efficient offensive players, and 3) that you really misplayed your offense by having the one guy who could partially bail you out, only take 6 ppg.

whoever is talking about you playing the fastbreak with this team, and being a lot better, is right. you can get away without 3 point scoring in fastbreak, and to a lesser extent, motion, but not triangle or flex. whoever said flex might get you a lot further, i have no idea why they said that, but whatever the reason, that's not true at all. but playing fastbreak, and to a lesser extent, motion, you rely more on those ath/spd ratings, and can draw more fouls - which means you can get to a decent place without the super efficient 3 point scoring that almost all great d1/d2/d3 teams in the whole game are sporting. foul shots are actually the most efficient form of offense, but players generally cannot take enough to make up for not shooting 3s. in fb, you sort of can, and if you add in the added benefit of causing more foul trouble, it can roughly even out (you still will never be as efficient offensively as a top notch 3 point shooting club).

Wait, 3 point shooting is efficient? Maybe I should take more 3s.