Posted by the0nlyis on 5/20/2016 12:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/20/2016 12:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 5/20/2016 11:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by scaturo on 5/20/2016 11:25:00 AM (view original):
I actually don't think it's the easiest way to win either. Most of the Dickinson copy cats aren't very successful.

most of the dickinson copy cats are the literal versions of ath/def.

Myers does get spd and usually 1/2 guys with 50+ bh 40+ pas as well as good bigs that aren't actually just ath/def and have nice rebounding. So the myers copycats fail because they actually think its just ath/def you have to get and don't 0 spd/bh/pas and no rebounding, while myers best dickinson teams usually have 1-2 acceptable bh/pas players and does not go all out for ath/def in his big men

Is this for real yo??? Because I said early earlier I said "a Fastbreak/Press team that basically recruits for only ATH and DEF sounds like the opposite of 'quirky' to me." But regardless, that's not a literal statement because you can almost always find players that have great ATH/DEF and a minimum of below average core ratings (at least in time) since they generate both frontcourt and backcourt players in that fashion.

Though, needless to say, its much easier to find PF/C with suitable core ratings than backcourt guys - which is why that team has several quality big men (in everything besides LP), but only one guard has above 40 BH and only two have above 30 PS...and guess what, those are three different players. And until last night, if not for a last second buzzer beater in the elite 8, that team would still be buzzsawing its way through a superb undefeated season.

I'm just clarifying for people who think he does actually only recruit for those 2 traits because that is literally all the copycats focus on, just reemphasizing that point not correcting you.

yeah yeah, I agree, my bad yo.

If you don't think the system is broken, how about this. His PG got DIII POY. He averages 25 PPG and shoots over 50% from the field.

He has a LP rating of 13 and a PE rating of 1.

Posted by cburton23 on 5/20/2016 1:28:00 PM (view original):
If you don't think the system is broken, how about this. His PG got DIII POY. He averages 25 PPG and shoots over 50% from the field.

He has a LP rating of 13 and a PE rating of 1.

holy ****...this isn't ******* funny anymore

Cburton, can we get a link to the player?

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/20/2016 11:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by scaturo on 5/20/2016 11:26:00 AM (view original):
And I can unargue almost any point with ruthless inefficiency.

please tell me that you just made that up...and it's not a cliché.

I'm not a very morbid person, nor has this thought ever crossed my mind, but I think I've got a leading candidate for my epitaph.

All me baby, all me.

Posted by cburton23 on 5/20/2016 1:28:00 PM (view original):
If you don't think the system is broken, how about this. His PG got DIII POY. He averages 25 PPG and shoots over 50% from the field.

He has a LP rating of 13 and a PE rating of 1.

23.3 ppg on 45% shooting with 3.7 TO's per game out of conference FWIW. (looks like his conference sucks)

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=0&pid=3200611

It's Andre Iguadola at a D3 school!

I think there's one valid criticism of myers' teams (or rather the gameplay), which is that his relatively average speed should hurt him more than it does. I see some games where he's forcing [edited] 25+ TO while having less guard speed than his opponent. That's a stretch.

But I think the rest of the criticisms are off-base. A couple of points:
- The superclass argument. He's top-10 in worlds where he has 3 seniors and 5+ sophs. He's top-25 with a team that has 4 upperclassmen.
- "All he does is get ATH and DEF." First, as others have pointed out, his strategy only works so well because he also gets elite STA. It's insanely hard to get players who'll have all three of those attributes - not at a very good level, but at an elite level - since everybody wants those attributes. In Rupp, his team DEF avg is 74. That's with 5 sophs. The next highest DEF in D3 Rupp is 67. The highest in *D2* is 71. 90% of human players are looking for and fighting for those same attributes, and myers consistently gets them better than nearly everyone else.
- He recruits nationally, which most coaches don't even try to do at D3, and even fewer do really well. And he's able to pull it off both in worlds with nearly full Centennial confs, and worlds where it's nearly empty and he won't get the benefit of postseason cash from his conf mates.

As jsajsa pointed out, he's certainly beatable if you've got the right players and right gameplan. (Side note: opponents playing him -1 in the NT, when Dickinson hasn't made a single 3PT all season and he has a +15 reb adv / game = not the right gameplan.) His teams walk a real tightrope with their lack of BH / PAS, and it often backfires. But I think he's aware of those tradeoffs and navigates them perfectly, in both recruiting and depth chart, and to me that makes what he does much more interesting than most people seem to give him credit for.

If anyone wants to join Myers conference, I will do it.

He is apart of a decent conference in Crum and has been successful there.

I've only read parts of this because it is a thread that's been done before, but one of his championship teams from a few seasons ago had a pg with a 7 passing. I think his pf had the highest passing and it was in the teens I believe.

it hurts the brain to try to comprehend that some of his teams can ever move the ball up the court.

i think he deserves credit for devising the scheme. However, IMHO, th accolades are a little diminished since he does it with Dickinson in nearly a very world! I think he would earn more credibility as a good coach if he was successful with any other kind of team.

I think we need to be clear about something here. We, or at least myself, are not attacking myers. He has a plan and is executing to very well.

The argument is that the plan should not be this effective. A guy with a grand total of 14 rating points between the two shooting categories should not be able to score 25 PPG and shoot over 50%. The fact that this is possible is not myers fault, but it is a problem

Posted by bhansalid00 on 5/20/2016 3:33:00 PM (view original):
I think there's one valid criticism of myers' teams (or rather the gameplay), which is that his relatively average speed should hurt him more than it does. I see some games where he's forcing [edited] 25+ TO while having less guard speed than his opponent. That's a stretch.

But I think the rest of the criticisms are off-base. A couple of points:
- The superclass argument. He's top-10 in worlds where he has 3 seniors and 5+ sophs. He's top-25 with a team that has 4 upperclassmen.
- "All he does is get ATH and DEF." First, as others have pointed out, his strategy only works so well because he also gets elite STA. It's insanely hard to get players who'll have all three of those attributes - not at a very good level, but at an elite level - since everybody wants those attributes. In Rupp, his team DEF avg is 74. That's with 5 sophs. The next highest DEF in D3 Rupp is 67. The highest in *D2* is 71. 90% of human players are looking for and fighting for those same attributes, and myers consistently gets them better than nearly everyone else.
- He recruits nationally, which most coaches don't even try to do at D3, and even fewer do really well. And he's able to pull it off both in worlds with nearly full Centennial confs, and worlds where it's nearly empty and he won't get the benefit of postseason cash from his conf mates.

As jsajsa pointed out, he's certainly beatable if you've got the right players and right gameplan. (Side note: opponents playing him -1 in the NT, when Dickinson hasn't made a single 3PT all season and he has a +15 reb adv / game = not the right gameplan.) His teams walk a real tightrope with their lack of BH / PAS, and it often backfires. But I think he's aware of those tradeoffs and navigates them perfectly, in both recruiting and depth chart, and to me that makes what he does much more interesting than most people seem to give him credit for.

Here's a box score of all ath verse all speed he beat me 2 seasons in a row both went to OT if I remember.

Box Score

Same here not attack at all, clearly no one else is replicating it so its not "gaming" the system like people think, sure it's not the most "ideal" or one that could theoretically work, but it does work. Yes it shouldn't work to the extent it does for some players/games, but it does and if it was truly cheating the system many more people would've tried to and successfully run it as well. I know 2 other coaches that run extremely high ath/def lineups cbriese and carlbuzz both run probably the next highest ath/def lineups and carl does it with a zone in Knight and cbreise runs a flex press I believe.

You guys are also making a huge fuss over that player yes he would probably not be that good in real life, but knowing how the engine works, look at his ratings he has 98 ath 59 spd 100 def 45 bh 100 stamina B+ FT yes he would never work as a PG but in an engine that favors ath so heavily, that ath/stamina/FT is insane at D3.

I agree ideally that should not work at PG, but at SF and maaaybe SG you could get away with it at D3.

theonly, what you are saying we are making a huge fuss about, should have a huge fuss made about it. I don't care how fast or athletic you are, with these ratings the guy should never make a shot outside of the paint, and only make a few in the paint, but he is shooting 50%. The way the engine works, PER and LP mean nothing if you have ATH. So your point is exactly why we are making a fuss, it is because of the way the engine works.