Trying to understand Topic

Posted by bbunch on 9/23/2016 8:31:00 AM (view original):
So far, I haven't found it that much more time consuming at all because scouting and recruiting don't need to happen immediately. I'm still not a fan of the new scouting process, but there are ways to do it quickly and efficiently. I like the new recruiting process for the most part,, especially recruiting throughout the season.

I don't see how it has to be super-time consuming when you are basically just placing attention points on a player and leaving them there if you want (though you have the option to increase or decrease them). I missed 3 days of checking in to this game due to a trip last weekend, and it didn't negatively affect me a whole lot.

A lot of coaches are missing how attention points work, and therefore spending way too much time on recruiting assigning and re-assigning attention points over and over again. Recruiting isn't really that time consuming IMO. Scouting can be, but if you just hold your own camp and then do some assistant searches, you end up being able to look at good info on many recruits. (FSS seems to be the crappiest option in this new game IMO, and some coaches might be frustrated by that as well)

The biggest problem is seble disappearing after releasing the beta because the process of learning how to use some parts of the scouting/recruiting processes are not intuitive, and due to the bad reputation on the forums of 3.0, many don't have the patience to learn how to play the new game efficiently. If this game had a "tutorial mode" that could be clicked "on/off", that would help some folks a lot IMO.

Those who want to learn the new game.....reading chapelhill's post should really help. I think many have already assumed and/or decided that it is a disaster though.

I'm also not saying 3.0 is a huge improvement either....but I don't think it makes the game worse (unless a huge percent of the humans leave). Again, a dev chat would be nice, but Seble seems to be awol, so that hurts.



+1
Well stated!
9/24/2016 2:45 PM
IBA CVAC is good for 3.0
9/24/2016 3:08 PM
It also hurts WIS didn't even update the FAQ when they rolled out 3.0.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/help/faq.aspx
9/24/2016 3:25 PM
I'm in the minority (of those who post in the forums) but I do think it's a significant improvement over the previous version - other than that, I pretty much completely agree with bbunch. People like what they like, and I don't need anyone to agree with my preferences, but the forums have been absolutely toxic, and frankly I'll be very happy once the exodus is winding down. It's been one agonizingly long exercise in group exit trolling. Like politics, everyone repeating themselves over and over, the same issues coming up in every discussion, nobody is going to change their mind, except through experience with the actual game.

This is the game that exists now. There's a learning curve for adjustment, but it's not really counterintuitive (discover players through scouting, players have preferences, expect big battles for the best players, and you're not going to get everything you want, no matter how successful you are) unless you're still in 2.0 mindset. I'll keep encouraging people to give it a chance. But if it's not for you, it's not for you.
9/24/2016 3:36 PM (edited)
you know one reason why there may be a perception that people keep repeating the same things - because they haven't been heard, responded to or acknowledged by wis in any form or fashion. it's like wis wants their customers to leave, maybe part of the agenda of 3.0 was driving out long-term coaches so jobs would open up in power conferences and make some coaches happy they could move up.
9/24/2016 5:25 PM
Posted by shoe3 on 9/24/2016 3:36:00 PM (view original):
I'm in the minority (of those who post in the forums) but I do think it's a significant improvement over the previous version - other than that, I pretty much completely agree with bbunch. People like what they like, and I don't need anyone to agree with my preferences, but the forums have been absolutely toxic, and frankly I'll be very happy once the exodus is winding down. It's been one agonizingly long exercise in group exit trolling. Like politics, everyone repeating themselves over and over, the same issues coming up in every discussion, nobody is going to change their mind, except through experience with the actual game.

This is the game that exists now. There's a learning curve for adjustment, but it's not really counterintuitive (discover players through scouting, players have preferences, expect big battles for the best players, and you're not going to get everything you want, no matter how successful you are) unless you're still in 2.0 mindset. I'll keep encouraging people to give it a chance. But if it's not for you, it's not for you.
I for one am happy you feel that way. I'm not one to make a negative of something that makes other customers happy. I also hope one day when everything you like changes for something you don't like, that you stay silent. I think you miss the point that it was a large portion of the customer base, people who helped make this game what it was for so many that were not only neglected, but outright ignored. Admin showed very little appreciation for these users who are not a small portion of this customer base and essentially cast them aside.

Most are not saying changes were not needed. The problem is the changes made didn't address a lot of the key issues, and most of the changes that people are saying they liked, could have been made without changing the entire game. Go look at Chappel's post in this thread about what he likes and count how much of it needed a full system revamp to make those changes. Probably 80% of what he liked were either cosmetic, or formula related.
9/24/2016 6:05 PM
Posted by pkoopman on 9/23/2016 12:27:00 PM (view original):
I got D3 scouting done in less than 30 minutes this morning, after Phelan opened up last night. FSS>camps, wait for camps to run (I'd only do a private camp at D3), then flag players that look interesting with good preference profiles, and scout them up one level at a time. 30 minutes, and I've got 18 targets for 2 openings, and 6k left to use as necessary, if I need to and/or feel like it. FWIW, it was uncommon for me to spend less than 30 minutes in 2.0 deciding what states to scout (needed to worry about how many level appropriate recruits there were), what prospects to go after, not to mention pouring through those asinine scouting reports that kept giving you the same info, and you never had the full picture in one place.

Agree with bathtubhippo. The first season is all adjustment. It gets better from there.
What you're saying here is you spend more time in the old system trying to figure out what states to FSS than you do determining who you want to recruit? That's ridiculous. I do the same thing determining how many level appropriate recruits are available, and it was a 5 minute process for anything up to 7 or 8 states. Literally, all you had to do was pick your states, look at the player ratings and you're done. In the new system, not only are you still doing the same thing, but you have to determine how you want to use your scouting budget, determine what level of recruits you want to pursue, and still have to look down the list of recruits. Level appropriate recruits are still a factor as you're still going to have trouble beating out upper division schools head to head.
9/24/2016 6:10 PM
Posted by chapelhillne on 9/24/2016 12:01:00 AM (view original):
Obviously everyone pretty much knows I really like it as well. You can still do it quickly if you want to, but you can also spend a lot more time if you want to. Since I enjoy the game a lot, I like the fact that I can spend more time on it. It is a better value for the money I spend. I have actually increased my teams, and will be in all 10 worlds once Rupp starts again.

I also like the fact that you can recruit at longer distances, and I like the fact that top players do not get a free pass to the top teams on the first cycle of recruiting, and there is never a challenge for them.

I like the 20 HV limit - it puts more teams on an even footing and makes it possible for a team that has one opening to compete with a team that has 6, since they can both do the same number of HVs. The 6 opening team would probably win if that was a prized recruit because they could pile on many more attention points, but if that happens, they still have 5 other spots to fill and with so much invested in one recruit it is not easy.

I love no longer sending a scout to China 8 times to find out if a PG has high potential in Ball Handling, and having the scout come back talking about how he cannot grow any more in rebounding, but not mentioning the one thing I sent him to China to find out about.

I love not having to cram my scouting into 36 hours if I have no carry over.

I love having 9 hours instead of two to place my initial recruiting.

I love that if I miss a cycle, my attention points are still out there doing something.

I like some degree of randomness in signing, as long as it does not turn out to be too much, which remains to be seen to some degree.

I like that if I blow my entire budget, I can still sign good players with just attention points and a scholarship, which are both free.

I love seeing a team like Cal Santa Barbara being able to sneak in and grab a 5 star guy.

I love that promises of playing time are very important in 3.0

I love (maybe most) the fact that I can battle for a recruit and not have to worry about someone looking at my team page and seeing I have 5 openings and am in 3 battles, then looking att the other two guys that I am not in a battle for and going after them because I am "weak". Battling for a recruit should not make you "weak".

I also like the fact that recruiting is way more challenging now. Often, in 2.0, by 8 PM on the first night I have the players I want considering only me, and there is no challenge the rest of recruiting. It's nice to land a great class like that, but it's not as interesting as having to try to figure out how to outsmart 3-4 other A+ programs for a top recruit

I love being able to see the High-Highs up front.

I also really love new challenges. There are so many more moving parts in this version. You have to try to figure out which players you have the best shot at by taking into account preferences, then come up with there right combination of recruiting tools.

I hope that some of the coaches that say they are going to run out their credits will change their minds after a season or two. Really, if I was in that camp, and was someone that has gotten a lot of enjoyment out of the game, I would give it like 4 seasons. Like anything new, it takes a little time to get used to.

Chapelhillne, thank you for this review. Your points and your overall post are ten times better -- no, make that 100 times better -- than reading all the whining and crying from the guys who say they're going to quit but hang around ... well, whining and crying. A thoughtful post like yours is a good antidote to the toxicity of the whiners and haters.
9/24/2016 7:32 PM
Posted by vandydave on 9/24/2016 5:25:00 PM (view original):
you know one reason why there may be a perception that people keep repeating the same things - because they haven't been heard, responded to or acknowledged by wis in any form or fashion. it's like wis wants their customers to leave, maybe part of the agenda of 3.0 was driving out long-term coaches so jobs would open up in power conferences and make some coaches happy they could move up.
That doesn't sound like someone who was involved in the beta at all. There was a lot of interaction, prior to rollout. Lots of battle analyses, tweaks and big changes to the formulas. Seble listened and dialogued on most concerns. There are simply competing preferences at work here, and not everyone was going to be happy. In the end, it's not a democracy, and the rollout is not subject to a vote. We're customers, not shareholders, we don't own anything, and our preferences only matter to the point that they align with WIS goals. For better or worse, they decided an overhaul was going to happen. My speculation is that they want to grow and expand, and the old model couldn't retain new users beyond a *very* niche group of math/sport-geek subset of game players. I think they want more basketball fans, maybe more of the types of players who would play College Hoops 2K series on dynasty mode a decade ago. In any case, that's the decision. Going back to "classic" is a non-starter. Again my speculation, but I suspect that's why the admin team, if it is a team, has gone dark, relative to what happened with beta. If I'm the developer, and this is the decision, at some point you let it roll and let the chips fall. It's both unrealistic (because there's no end to it) and counter-productive to continue to engage the dissatisfied population in the same dialogue that was going on a year ago, when beta was just a glimmer in seble's eye. I'm guessing this fall we see a big push for the start of the NCAA season. That's the end game. They've moved on. It sucks for people who were attached to the old game, but it just wasn't going to be sustainable with high D1 as broken as it was. Big 6 D1 has to be the core of the game. No one comes to a college basketball thinking "oh wow, I can coach Abilene Christian in this game, awesome!" If Big 6 D1 is locked up, coaches wait real life years to even sniff a doormat Big 6 job, and then see how bad the deck is stacked against them. That's why not many have stayed, IMO.

At some point, you accept it and adjust, or you move on. I don't think it's accurate to say these concerns haven't been heard. They haven't been resolved to your satisfaction, but they've been heard. Bob Dylan went electric. Some people still hate him for it, but it was his call to make.
9/24/2016 10:18 PM
Posted by poncho0091 on 9/24/2016 6:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by pkoopman on 9/23/2016 12:27:00 PM (view original):
I got D3 scouting done in less than 30 minutes this morning, after Phelan opened up last night. FSS>camps, wait for camps to run (I'd only do a private camp at D3), then flag players that look interesting with good preference profiles, and scout them up one level at a time. 30 minutes, and I've got 18 targets for 2 openings, and 6k left to use as necessary, if I need to and/or feel like it. FWIW, it was uncommon for me to spend less than 30 minutes in 2.0 deciding what states to scout (needed to worry about how many level appropriate recruits there were), what prospects to go after, not to mention pouring through those asinine scouting reports that kept giving you the same info, and you never had the full picture in one place.

Agree with bathtubhippo. The first season is all adjustment. It gets better from there.
What you're saying here is you spend more time in the old system trying to figure out what states to FSS than you do determining who you want to recruit? That's ridiculous. I do the same thing determining how many level appropriate recruits are available, and it was a 5 minute process for anything up to 7 or 8 states. Literally, all you had to do was pick your states, look at the player ratings and you're done. In the new system, not only are you still doing the same thing, but you have to determine how you want to use your scouting budget, determine what level of recruits you want to pursue, and still have to look down the list of recruits. Level appropriate recruits are still a factor as you're still going to have trouble beating out upper division schools head to head.
It's not ridiculous. I like being efficient. So prior to deciding what states to scout, I would run filtered searches to figure out how many of the types of recruits each state had. At D1 it was more of an OCD thing, but at D3 Wisconsin Stout, I don't want to pay for Illinois, for example, if a very high percentage of their recruits I'm paying for are D1.

And no, I don't just "look at player ratings" and then I'm done. You're leaving out the worst part, those terrible scouting reports. It's easy to say they could have just tweaked it to give us the information, but without other big changes in the process, that would be a disastrous giveaway to teams that already had the advantage. Scouting had to be separated from recruiting to avoid making that potential feature an absolute hard-lock down gift to elite teams.

The first season takes some trial and error to get your preferred process down. But no, it's not a joke that after 5 seasons of beta, I'm comfortable saying I don't feel I have to spend any more time scouting than I did in the old version.
9/24/2016 10:32 PM
Posted by poncho0091 on 9/24/2016 6:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by shoe3 on 9/24/2016 3:36:00 PM (view original):
I'm in the minority (of those who post in the forums) but I do think it's a significant improvement over the previous version - other than that, I pretty much completely agree with bbunch. People like what they like, and I don't need anyone to agree with my preferences, but the forums have been absolutely toxic, and frankly I'll be very happy once the exodus is winding down. It's been one agonizingly long exercise in group exit trolling. Like politics, everyone repeating themselves over and over, the same issues coming up in every discussion, nobody is going to change their mind, except through experience with the actual game.

This is the game that exists now. There's a learning curve for adjustment, but it's not really counterintuitive (discover players through scouting, players have preferences, expect big battles for the best players, and you're not going to get everything you want, no matter how successful you are) unless you're still in 2.0 mindset. I'll keep encouraging people to give it a chance. But if it's not for you, it's not for you.
I for one am happy you feel that way. I'm not one to make a negative of something that makes other customers happy. I also hope one day when everything you like changes for something you don't like, that you stay silent. I think you miss the point that it was a large portion of the customer base, people who helped make this game what it was for so many that were not only neglected, but outright ignored. Admin showed very little appreciation for these users who are not a small portion of this customer base and essentially cast them aside.

Most are not saying changes were not needed. The problem is the changes made didn't address a lot of the key issues, and most of the changes that people are saying they liked, could have been made without changing the entire game. Go look at Chappel's post in this thread about what he likes and count how much of it needed a full system revamp to make those changes. Probably 80% of what he liked were either cosmetic, or formula related.
Really well said by both of you
9/24/2016 10:38 PM
Posted by pkoopman on 9/24/2016 10:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by vandydave on 9/24/2016 5:25:00 PM (view original):
you know one reason why there may be a perception that people keep repeating the same things - because they haven't been heard, responded to or acknowledged by wis in any form or fashion. it's like wis wants their customers to leave, maybe part of the agenda of 3.0 was driving out long-term coaches so jobs would open up in power conferences and make some coaches happy they could move up.
That doesn't sound like someone who was involved in the beta at all. There was a lot of interaction, prior to rollout. Lots of battle analyses, tweaks and big changes to the formulas. Seble listened and dialogued on most concerns. There are simply competing preferences at work here, and not everyone was going to be happy. In the end, it's not a democracy, and the rollout is not subject to a vote. We're customers, not shareholders, we don't own anything, and our preferences only matter to the point that they align with WIS goals. For better or worse, they decided an overhaul was going to happen. My speculation is that they want to grow and expand, and the old model couldn't retain new users beyond a *very* niche group of math/sport-geek subset of game players. I think they want more basketball fans, maybe more of the types of players who would play College Hoops 2K series on dynasty mode a decade ago. In any case, that's the decision. Going back to "classic" is a non-starter. Again my speculation, but I suspect that's why the admin team, if it is a team, has gone dark, relative to what happened with beta. If I'm the developer, and this is the decision, at some point you let it roll and let the chips fall. It's both unrealistic (because there's no end to it) and counter-productive to continue to engage the dissatisfied population in the same dialogue that was going on a year ago, when beta was just a glimmer in seble's eye. I'm guessing this fall we see a big push for the start of the NCAA season. That's the end game. They've moved on. It sucks for people who were attached to the old game, but it just wasn't going to be sustainable with high D1 as broken as it was. Big 6 D1 has to be the core of the game. No one comes to a college basketball thinking "oh wow, I can coach Abilene Christian in this game, awesome!" If Big 6 D1 is locked up, coaches wait real life years to even sniff a doormat Big 6 job, and then see how bad the deck is stacked against them. That's why not many have stayed, IMO.

At some point, you accept it and adjust, or you move on. I don't think it's accurate to say these concerns haven't been heard. They haven't been resolved to your satisfaction, but they've been heard. Bob Dylan went electric. Some people still hate him for it, but it was his call to make.
Every bit of interaction I saw between seble and coaches in the beta forums was about specific details of the beta rollout rather than theory behind it, as you mentioned. You argue wis users should have no say in the direction of the game or voice in the theory, I disagree. The very nature of a dynasty game is a long-term base who built and sustained the game, no one voice should have priority but no voices should have been ignored either. I directed posts toward him seeking to engage in conversation about process and theory and never got any sort of meaningful responses. What dialogue was going on a year ago - I have zero awareness of any of that.

For the record, as some of my posts have likely revealed I'm not a math guy at all, never made a spreadsheet or exported data or anything like that.
9/24/2016 11:37 PM
Posted by vandydave on 9/24/2016 11:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by pkoopman on 9/24/2016 10:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by vandydave on 9/24/2016 5:25:00 PM (view original):
you know one reason why there may be a perception that people keep repeating the same things - because they haven't been heard, responded to or acknowledged by wis in any form or fashion. it's like wis wants their customers to leave, maybe part of the agenda of 3.0 was driving out long-term coaches so jobs would open up in power conferences and make some coaches happy they could move up.
That doesn't sound like someone who was involved in the beta at all. There was a lot of interaction, prior to rollout. Lots of battle analyses, tweaks and big changes to the formulas. Seble listened and dialogued on most concerns. There are simply competing preferences at work here, and not everyone was going to be happy. In the end, it's not a democracy, and the rollout is not subject to a vote. We're customers, not shareholders, we don't own anything, and our preferences only matter to the point that they align with WIS goals. For better or worse, they decided an overhaul was going to happen. My speculation is that they want to grow and expand, and the old model couldn't retain new users beyond a *very* niche group of math/sport-geek subset of game players. I think they want more basketball fans, maybe more of the types of players who would play College Hoops 2K series on dynasty mode a decade ago. In any case, that's the decision. Going back to "classic" is a non-starter. Again my speculation, but I suspect that's why the admin team, if it is a team, has gone dark, relative to what happened with beta. If I'm the developer, and this is the decision, at some point you let it roll and let the chips fall. It's both unrealistic (because there's no end to it) and counter-productive to continue to engage the dissatisfied population in the same dialogue that was going on a year ago, when beta was just a glimmer in seble's eye. I'm guessing this fall we see a big push for the start of the NCAA season. That's the end game. They've moved on. It sucks for people who were attached to the old game, but it just wasn't going to be sustainable with high D1 as broken as it was. Big 6 D1 has to be the core of the game. No one comes to a college basketball thinking "oh wow, I can coach Abilene Christian in this game, awesome!" If Big 6 D1 is locked up, coaches wait real life years to even sniff a doormat Big 6 job, and then see how bad the deck is stacked against them. That's why not many have stayed, IMO.

At some point, you accept it and adjust, or you move on. I don't think it's accurate to say these concerns haven't been heard. They haven't been resolved to your satisfaction, but they've been heard. Bob Dylan went electric. Some people still hate him for it, but it was his call to make.
Every bit of interaction I saw between seble and coaches in the beta forums was about specific details of the beta rollout rather than theory behind it, as you mentioned. You argue wis users should have no say in the direction of the game or voice in the theory, I disagree. The very nature of a dynasty game is a long-term base who built and sustained the game, no one voice should have priority but no voices should have been ignored either. I directed posts toward him seeking to engage in conversation about process and theory and never got any sort of meaningful responses. What dialogue was going on a year ago - I have zero awareness of any of that.

For the record, as some of my posts have likely revealed I'm not a math guy at all, never made a spreadsheet or exported data or anything like that.
Right, I'm a sport-geek (not a math geek) too. The point is, these text based fantasy/dynasty games have an already-limited base.

I didnt say the community of users should have no voice; it's just not a democracy. They took lots of input. Lots. I talked about lots of ideas in various posts, too. I think the game would be better if recruiting was based on attention points, and if they were static, i.e. everyone should have the same amount regardless of scholarships, as everyone has the same number of hours in the day. You can do a campus visit if the recruit says you can. You can do a 1st, 2nd, 3rd home visit, if the recruit says you can. Take cash out completely. Decisions would be made on preferences of the recruit, prestige of the school, and how high a priority the recruit was for the school (and promises, of course). I know it's radical, but I still firmly believe that is the best set up for a recruiting simulation. I made the best case I could, and it was met with mostly crickets, beyond a little good-natured mocking from mully. Oh well. It was heard. It's just not going to go the way I want it to go. I'll play the game that exists.

Also, I'm referring to those initial scouting/recruiting threads - like this - Seble started last September. Actually kind of interesting to go back through them now.
9/25/2016 9:25 AM (edited)
Kind of interesting to read the Dev Chat from last March, too.
9/25/2016 12:35 AM
Well the first part of this thread was useful as it stayed on topic. Anyway for a casual user like me the scouting is now much more time consuming and complicated. I used to take 15-20 min to figure out what states I wanted to scout at D3 and wham I had what is now considered level 4 scouting, yes I know I didn't know if it was high or very high but for me that isn't a significant enough improvement for how much more I have to do.

I haven't gotten to recruiting yet but attention points, which I have no frame of reference for so are not in any way intuitive, to unlock actions and then not knowing if I really have a chance at a player because even if I am leading I may loose doesn't seem like much of an improvement either.

I have enough credits for 1 more season so I'm still in a wait and see mode.

Thanks for the responses.
9/25/2016 2:49 AM
◂ Prev 123
Trying to understand Topic

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2024 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.