There is no difference between Div-1 Penn State at D+ prestige and Div-1 Cleveland State at D+ prestige. Whether a team is Big6 or any other Div-1, there should be no difference IMHO, so I am fine with that. It is very hard for a good baseline team to be D+ in HD .. that means Penn State in this case is in the dregs of Div-1 at D+ ... certainly in the dregs of a power conference.

So the real question is .. what is the prestige advantage of D+ Div-1 vs. A- Div-2. One might say that the prestige of those two teams should be similar if you look at it objectively. If you want a D prestige Div-1 team (and it would be any D-1 team, take the name of the jersey) to be significantly higher than an A prestige Div-2 team, then that is something to pursue/discuss.

Before you answer this question, remember that most A prestige Div-2 teams think they SHOULD be able to knock off a D prestige SIM team for recruits. Also remember that D+ Penn State is just like D+ Cleveland State as far as the game is concerned (and Baseline Prestige is used to make it difficult for Penn State to get that low, but if they do then they are like any mid major team at D+).

If you want to make an adjustment such that Div-2 guys can almost never compete to take away players from Div-I SIM teams, that is fine .. but understand that is what people seem to be asking for.

Posted by zorzii on 9/26/2016 10:33:00 AM (view original):
Still not working. I doubt people will play this game if this happens... I know I won't. I don't mind a mid-major stealing a player from my big six team... I understand with préférences the kid would prefer another program than mine. But D2... No. If the player is any good, he will make D2 unbalanced, and he just screwed a D1 team of a season... and a recruiting period.

It's illogical. Late effort, ap, anything, préférences. It's bad for the game. We do not want D2 level to be about getting a steal or two to win the NT... It will totally be about luck now and not skills. I was battling USC, lost, the other one won a battle against UNC... he has the edge. Can't get a top ranked player, that can actually be a player in D1, too bad, your D2 team is doomed... 64, 32 NT, forget elite eight, you need to be a Lucky dude.

Mid Major and Big6 have no difference except Prestige. A D+ Mid Major and a D+ Big6 are the same .. they always have been.
Baseline prestige minimizes the fall and lowest score that a Big6 program can have .. but if you manage to drive a Big6 team down to D+ .. then they are a D+ Div-1 team, just like a D+ Mid Major is a Div-1 D+ team.

I would expect nothing different .. and it has always been that way.

SPUD, HOW MANY APs! This is super-important.

Posted by cubcub113 on 9/26/2016 11:47:00 AM (view original):
SPUD, HOW MANY APs! This is super-important.

Settle down Beavis, Spud addressed the APs on the previous page.

I'm going to take a second to give Spud some credit here. Beta testing is all about discovering problems and quirks, and with rogelio's help, he brought one to light. Now it's on WIS to address it or not.

Posted by hughesjr on 9/26/2016 11:20:00 AM (view original):
There is no difference between Div-1 Penn State at D+ prestige and Div-1 Cleveland State at D+ prestige. Whether a team is Big6 or any other Div-1, there should be no difference IMHO, so I am fine with that. It is very hard for a good baseline team to be D+ in HD .. that means Penn State in this case is in the dregs of Div-1 at D+ ... certainly in the dregs of a power conference.

So the real question is .. what is the prestige advantage of D+ Div-1 vs. A- Div-2. One might say that the prestige of those two teams should be similar if you look at it objectively. If you want a D prestige Div-1 team (and it would be any D-1 team, take the name of the jersey) to be significantly higher than an A prestige Div-2 team, then that is something to pursue/discuss.

Before you answer this question, remember that most A prestige Div-2 teams think they SHOULD be able to knock off a D prestige SIM team for recruits. Also remember that D+ Penn State is just like D+ Cleveland State as far as the game is concerned (and Baseline Prestige is used to make it difficult for Penn State to get that low, but if they do then they are like any mid major team at D+).

If you want to make an adjustment such that Div-2 guys can almost never compete to take away players from Div-I SIM teams, that is fine .. but understand that is what people seem to be asking for.

A couple of comments on this (and I'm much more of a D2 player than D1):

• D+ teams in Rupp D1 go from #157 to #185 in prestige rankings. That's out of 324 teams. D+ in D1 is average, not abysmal. (The RL equivalent from last year would be something like 16-18 Nebraska.)
• An A- team in D2 is currently anywhere between #22 - 35. That's basically the 10th - 20th percentile. Very good, but not elite at D2.
• Given that, I'd say an average D1 team SHOULD win a battle over a very-good-but-not-elite D2 team over 95% of the time. I'm open to the idea that it shouldn't be a 100% slam dunk - I could envision very specific scenarios where a recruit *might* pick the D2 school in that battle, and I guess preferences are meant to simulate those scenarios - but it should be the very exceptional case. Playing at an average D1 school is still a big deal compared to playing for a D2 school that isn't elite.
• That incredibly high likelihood of D2 losing shouldn't be based around WHEN the D1 comes into the picture. The accumulation of attention points can be a good deciding point within a division, but if a recruit gets a call from a D1 school late, he's not thinking "Damn, why'd they wait so long?" He's thinking "D1!"

To me, an A- D2 team simply choosing to stay on a recruit after a reasonable D1 team comes into the picture should be the ultimate high-risk, high-reward scenario. As such, I'm not disgusted that D2 won this specific battle - but I hope it's part of an overall model where they'd lose the other 20 times they try it. Overreach should be almost-always penalized.

Posted by hughesjr on 9/26/2016 11:20:00 AM (view original):
There is no difference between Div-1 Penn State at D+ prestige and Div-1 Cleveland State at D+ prestige. Whether a team is Big6 or any other Div-1, there should be no difference IMHO, so I am fine with that. It is very hard for a good baseline team to be D+ in HD .. that means Penn State in this case is in the dregs of Div-1 at D+ ... certainly in the dregs of a power conference.

So the real question is .. what is the prestige advantage of D+ Div-1 vs. A- Div-2. One might say that the prestige of those two teams should be similar if you look at it objectively. If you want a D prestige Div-1 team (and it would be any D-1 team, take the name of the jersey) to be significantly higher than an A prestige Div-2 team, then that is something to pursue/discuss.

Before you answer this question, remember that most A prestige Div-2 teams think they SHOULD be able to knock off a D prestige SIM team for recruits. Also remember that D+ Penn State is just like D+ Cleveland State as far as the game is concerned (and Baseline Prestige is used to make it difficult for Penn State to get that low, but if they do then they are like any mid major team at D+).

If you want to make an adjustment such that Div-2 guys can almost never compete to take away players from Div-I SIM teams, that is fine .. but understand that is what people seem to be asking for.

That's probably the best case you can make for allowing it, but I'm still not buying it. The kid wants a rebuild, and Penn St. fits the bill. The kid wants to play, and Penn St. fits the bill. And we're not talking about beating a sim. This is another paying (hypothetically, out of beta) customer.

I think the principle here is that Big 6 schools should not drop so low to the point where they have to worry about beating away D2 schools. A Big 6 rebuild is difficult as it is. This would be absurd. So functionally, I think you have to say that a Big 6 program's prestige simply shouldn't drop low enough to allow a D2 to beat any serious effort.

In other words, I'm ok with Regis beating a poor Cleveland St. at D- prestige. I'm also ok with Regis being red-lighted when human-controlled and solid Cleveland St. with D+ prestige enters the picture. I'm not ok with any Big 6 program dropping low enough to use max effort on a recruit only considering a D2 team, and still not be able to knock them out of RNG range.

i see nothing but over reaction by coaches who want the game their way..as an observer to this discussion, i don't see anything wrong here..if penn st really wanted the recruit, he wouldn't have scaled back recruiting efforts..maybe the kid didn't want to play d1 ball far away from home..i've seen many cases of kids transferring to lower level ball in order to be a `star` rather than sit the bench..i don't know what his work ethic is, but that would weigh my decision on who wins this discussion..any coach who would quit a game because it ain't "fair" (whatever fair is)..well..just sayin..

Posted by franklynne on 9/26/2016 12:29:00 PM (view original):
i see nothing but over reaction by coaches who want the game their way..as an observer to this discussion, i don't see anything wrong here..if penn st really wanted the recruit, he wouldn't have scaled back recruiting efforts..maybe the kid didn't want to play d1 ball far away from home..i've seen many cases of kids transferring to lower level ball in order to be a `star` rather than sit the bench..i don't know what his work ethic is, but that would weigh my decision on who wins this discussion..any coach who would quit a game because it ain't "fair" (whatever fair is)..well..just sayin..

Cool story bro. Penn State was offering a start.

Posted by franklynne on 9/26/2016 12:29:00 PM (view original):
i see nothing but over reaction by coaches who want the game their way..as an observer to this discussion, i don't see anything wrong here..if penn st really wanted the recruit, he wouldn't have scaled back recruiting efforts..maybe the kid didn't want to play d1 ball far away from home..i've seen many cases of kids transferring to lower level ball in order to be a `star` rather than sit the bench..i don't know what his work ethic is, but that would weigh my decision on who wins this discussion..any coach who would quit a game because it ain't "fair" (whatever fair is)..well..just sayin..

"scaled back recruiting efforts"

LMAO...you do realize he offered MAX recruiting effort right???? This rationalization "because I know of a kid" who could have done this in real life is over the top. We will see how open minded some of you are when you have 4-5 walkons because you not only lost your coin flips but you lost battles you should have won.

Posted by hughesjr on 9/26/2016 11:20:00 AM (view original):
There is no difference between Div-1 Penn State at D+ prestige and Div-1 Cleveland State at D+ prestige. Whether a team is Big6 or any other Div-1, there should be no difference IMHO, so I am fine with that. It is very hard for a good baseline team to be D+ in HD .. that means Penn State in this case is in the dregs of Div-1 at D+ ... certainly in the dregs of a power conference.

So the real question is .. what is the prestige advantage of D+ Div-1 vs. A- Div-2. One might say that the prestige of those two teams should be similar if you look at it objectively. If you want a D prestige Div-1 team (and it would be any D-1 team, take the name of the jersey) to be significantly higher than an A prestige Div-2 team, then that is something to pursue/discuss.

Before you answer this question, remember that most A prestige Div-2 teams think they SHOULD be able to knock off a D prestige SIM team for recruits. Also remember that D+ Penn State is just like D+ Cleveland State as far as the game is concerned (and Baseline Prestige is used to make it difficult for Penn State to get that low, but if they do then they are like any mid major team at D+).

If you want to make an adjustment such that Div-2 guys can almost never compete to take away players from Div-I SIM teams, that is fine .. but understand that is what people seem to be asking for.

This is a good point. Or at least a lot of it is. A- D2 is not and should not be similar in prestige to D+ D1. If you want to make an argument for A+ D2 vs D- D1, I'll at least consider that, although I'd disagree (and, as an aside, if A+ D2 = D- D1, I'd say that A+ D3 probably equals C+ D2), but even if that's the case, there's still more than a one letter grade separation here.

In 2.0, a full letter grade of prestige advantage was generally considered to a multiplier of about 1.4 or 1.5. IIRC (I would love to check this number, but I'm having trouble navigating the beta forum archive, and I don't remember what thread it was posted in), seble said that if a battle is 60/40 regarding effort, one team would be very high and the other would be moderate. But a battle where both teams are throwing in the same effort and one has a 1.5 multiplier is a 60/40 battle.

In this case, I think the very best you can argue (on Regis' behalf) is that they should be more than a letter grade behind PSU in prestige, and thus facing a 1.5 multiplier. So if they put in more effort or have better preferences, I can see them sneaking in at the low end of high and having a <10% chance of signing the recruit. If they put in vastly more effort or have vastly more preferences (and in this case, it doesn't look like either one was the case), then I'd be fine with it being a legit close battle. But that is assuming D- D1 being considered equal to A+ D2 (i.e., no gap between divisions). And I don't think we should assume that. I would say that D- D1 should be at least a partial letter grade above A+ D2, and possibly up to a full letter grade. And if that were the case, PSU should basically have a 2x multiplier on everything compared to Regis. Which means Regis shouldn't even be in the picture unless they have a massive preference or effort advantage.

I don't think that (having A+ D2 be 1/3 to 1 letter grade below D- D1) is unreasonable, and I don't think it keeps D2s from ever competing with D1s. It just means they'd need a huge edge somewhere, and they could only do it against really low prestige D1 teams. That seems fair to me.

Posted by mullycj on 9/26/2016 12:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by franklynne on 9/26/2016 12:29:00 PM (view original):
i see nothing but over reaction by coaches who want the game their way..as an observer to this discussion, i don't see anything wrong here..if penn st really wanted the recruit, he wouldn't have scaled back recruiting efforts..maybe the kid didn't want to play d1 ball far away from home..i've seen many cases of kids transferring to lower level ball in order to be a `star` rather than sit the bench..i don't know what his work ethic is, but that would weigh my decision on who wins this discussion..any coach who would quit a game because it ain't "fair" (whatever fair is)..well..just sayin..

"scaled back recruiting efforts"

LMAO...you do realize he offered MAX recruiting effort right???? This rationalization "because I know of a kid" who could have done this in real life is over the top. We will see how open minded some of you are when you have 4-5 walkons because you not only lost your coin flips but you lost battles you should have won.

"max recruiting effort" doesn't convince anyone who don't wanna play there..in the `real world ` of HD3.0..if i'm a D2 team recruiting nothing but D1 players, i deserve all the walk-ons..

Posted by kcsundevil on 9/26/2016 11:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 9/26/2016 11:47:00 AM (view original):
SPUD, HOW MANY APs! This is super-important.

Settle down Beavis, Spud addressed the APs on the previous page.

I'm going to take a second to give Spud some credit here. Beta testing is all about discovering problems and quirks, and with rogelio's help, he brought one to light. Now it's on WIS to address it or not.

Ah, thanks. I didn't see a number but 25% more is a lot.

Skimming through the discussion here, so forgive me if I missed it, but when we say Penn State gave "max effort" does that mean Penn State was on the recruit right from the start? If they were on the recruit from the start, then I'd have to agree that it seems to be a pretty unlikely outcome.

If, however, Penn State came in late (and then put in max effort), that means that the other school was accumulating credit via attention points prior to Penn State jumping in. I could, (as long as it's rare) see a recruit choosing the good D2 school in that case (****** off recruit, doesn't want to be PSU's backup when he's been getting attention from a school that matches his preferences). But it should be a high risk move on the D2's part, where they pretty much have to go all in on the guy and even then not have a great chance. We're probably never going to get everyone to agree on exactly how it should play out, regardless. None of this second paragraph matters if they were both on the guy from the start of course.

Posted by franklynne on 9/26/2016 1:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 9/26/2016 12:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by franklynne on 9/26/2016 12:29:00 PM (view original):
i see nothing but over reaction by coaches who want the game their way..as an observer to this discussion, i don't see anything wrong here..if penn st really wanted the recruit, he wouldn't have scaled back recruiting efforts..maybe the kid didn't want to play d1 ball far away from home..i've seen many cases of kids transferring to lower level ball in order to be a `star` rather than sit the bench..i don't know what his work ethic is, but that would weigh my decision on who wins this discussion..any coach who would quit a game because it ain't "fair" (whatever fair is)..well..just sayin..

"scaled back recruiting efforts"

LMAO...you do realize he offered MAX recruiting effort right???? This rationalization "because I know of a kid" who could have done this in real life is over the top. We will see how open minded some of you are when you have 4-5 walkons because you not only lost your coin flips but you lost battles you should have won.

"max recruiting effort" doesn't convince anyone who don't wanna play there..in the `real world ` of HD3.0..if i'm a D2 team recruiting nothing but D1 players, i deserve all the walk-ons..

Might be valid, except Penn St. is also a rebuild, and is also promising a start. So the big fish/little pond idea doesn't have much weight. Plus this is a four star recruit, this is not a diamond in the rough. I agree with Tarv, the difference between divisions clearly needs more weight, especially D1/D2.

There is NO CONSIDERATION credit in 3.0

"Attention" on d4 is the same as attention on day 1