Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 9:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 8:43:00 AM (view original):
last season in wooden d1/d2/d3 - 115/104/85, this season 87/77/60 so far, that is 80 of 304 coaches, pretty close to the 25% number that some predicted. There still are quite a few fence sitters, important to keep them engaged. I recommend to those who like the game to stop trying to belittle those with issues about the update, and to start taking some of the concerns seriously. All the posting characterizing those who raise issues about the game as 'whiners' and 'haters' and such does nothing to help the game, and only adds fuel to the fire. There are some coaches who are doing a great job at looking forward and helping the game, the one that comes to mind who is worth copying is Chappel.

This can be said in reverse 1000 times over for a lot of the veterans that are leaving.

1000 times?

Seriously?

The point again was to try to keep the fence sitters. IMO the fence sitters are on the fence due to issues with the game, in many cases the same issues that the unfairly characterized 'whiners' and 'haters' raised.

And, since 25% of the coaches are gone, there is very little point in worrying about the 'reverse' position, they are basically not going to matter soon.

Oh well, I tried.

Yes, seriously. If you don't see that, then you are looking at things with rose colored glasses.

Posted by goodtymes31 on 10/3/2016 9:03:00 AM (view original):
Here is the other thing. People say that the long time owners were sitting on tons of credits and it was an unsustainable model, but them leaving doesn't change WIS income. They are still giving out the same amount of credits each season, so those will just go to other users now (who used to be paying) and their revenue is going to decrease.

The side effect is that some of us long time users who aren't on that top level, like myself, liked playing with some of these guys, and seeing tons of openings could dissuade them from continuing to play because they liked the camaraderie as much as anything else. Now, I personally, am not going anywhere yet, I just bought another 10 pack, but if these owners who left don't get replaced by the time that 10 pack is up, then we have a problem.

the guys who really earn the credits are the vets playing d2/d3 vs the new coaches. That is 2/3's of the total credits. The super 6 d1 credits are still only 1/3 of the total, and split up among a bunch of coaches.

Plus, right now, the free seasons are split up among 25% fewers users. The free season count in this equation did not change, so the loss of revenue is pretty directly proportional to the number of coaches leaving. The marketing issue is super important from a revenue POV.

GoodT I'm still playing all ten of my teams too, but I am probably going to cut back soon, maybe to three teams. Still there though - LOL.

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 9:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 9:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 8:43:00 AM (view original):
last season in wooden d1/d2/d3 - 115/104/85, this season 87/77/60 so far, that is 80 of 304 coaches, pretty close to the 25% number that some predicted. There still are quite a few fence sitters, important to keep them engaged. I recommend to those who like the game to stop trying to belittle those with issues about the update, and to start taking some of the concerns seriously. All the posting characterizing those who raise issues about the game as 'whiners' and 'haters' and such does nothing to help the game, and only adds fuel to the fire. There are some coaches who are doing a great job at looking forward and helping the game, the one that comes to mind who is worth copying is Chappel.

This can be said in reverse 1000 times over for a lot of the veterans that are leaving.

1000 times?

Seriously?

The point again was to try to keep the fence sitters. IMO the fence sitters are on the fence due to issues with the game, in many cases the same issues that the unfairly characterized 'whiners' and 'haters' raised.

And, since 25% of the coaches are gone, there is very little point in worrying about the 'reverse' position, they are basically not going to matter soon.

Oh well, I tried.

Yes, seriously. If you don't see that, then you are looking at things with rose colored glasses.

OK. But why use things like rose colored glasses to characterize me? Stand on the merits of your position instead! I am not afraid to characterize my POV based on what I know.

praise of the new system and criticism of it should be encouraged--it's to everyone's benefit and to WIS's benefit that HD3 is really analyzed.

what there really is no call for is (1) blanket praise of the new system without a critical eye and insulting people who post constructive criticism and (2) constant grump-*** posting in every thread about HD3 from a small minority of players (players who swear they are quitting but just don't seem to actually go). the latter is what ardthomp is speaking about. it's hard to enjoy the forums sometimes with the unending repetitive snark.

Posted by bathtubhippo on 10/3/2016 9:27:00 AM (view original):
praise of the new system and criticism of it should be encouraged--it's to everyone's benefit and to WIS's benefit that HD3 is really analyzed.

what there really is no call for is (1) blanket praise of the new system without a critical eye and insulting people who post constructive criticism and (2) constant grump-*** posting in every thread about HD3 from a small minority of players (players who swear they are quitting but just don't seem to actually go). the latter is what ardthomp is speaking about. it's hard to enjoy the forums sometimes with the unending repetitive snark.

agreed bath. Honestly I do, both points.

I hope that the vets who plan on leaving (or have left already) would stop posting such negative posts too.

Do you see the point that GoodT and I are raising, we both are vets, who both still have all of our teams, but see the 'logic' in the issues and pts the vets who were so angry over this change raised. I at least am angry too. But I'm still here.

You may be sick and tired of what they are saying, I'm sick and tired of those posters being called names, trolled and flamed for loving the old game so much, that they have the passion to be angry over the changes. To me, the crowd going after them, are only passionate over their hate of the vets who have played and loved the HD game.

But yes, if the vets are leaving or left, I wish they would quit feeding the trolls at this point.

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:40:00 AM (view original):

Posted by therewas47 on 10/3/2016 7:54:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jamesny27 on 10/3/2016 5:27:00 AM (view original):
It's mostly the whiners leaving, majority of which are the long time coaches who were plopped in their cushy A/A+ jobs and used to 5-star recruits just falling in their laps season after season. Now that things have changed and become more of a level playing field, they are no longer interested in playing.

Replace "whiners" with "long time customers"

There are plenty of long time customers that aren't leaving.

Whiners is/was the correct term.

Their choice to leave, their choice to stay. They chose to take their ball and go home.

Come on you know the connotation of whiners is that they are all just sulking because they can't get the best players when in fact many of the people quitting are doing so for a multitude of reasons. It has nothing to do with being a whiner and a lot to do with the previous developer not addressing any serious concerns people had with the game for years and just doing what he wanted to do. Did he have a right to do it? Sure. Providing feedback (positive, neutral, or negative) about a product that you have invested years in is a right that customers have and is not whining, being a baby, or what other dumb crap people want to say. My opinion has been that it didn't matter if this was the best update ever people were going to be upset regardless because it didn't address their concerns. I don't think the update is awful but I'd have preferred a less drastic change to limit blowback and to limit the amount of unintended consequences that this update created (dealing with EEs, difficulties with job changes, nonsensical preferences, etc...). That said anyone that loves the update and wants to promote the game isn't a sunshine pumper and someone who hates what has been done to it isn't a whiner. Both are just ways of saying that the other side's positions don't matter. That refusal to listen to people with differing opinions is what has soured many on the game already. People with differing opinions that make coherent, logical points aren't whatever name people want to ascribe to them. They are customers that do have a stake in the game. As someone that loved playing many of them I hate to see them go and hope it is temporary.

Posted by jamesny27 on 10/3/2016 5:27:00 AM (view original):
It's mostly the whiners leaving, majority of which are the long time coaches who were plopped in their cushy A/A+ jobs and used to 5-star recruits just falling in their laps season after season. Now that things have changed and become more of a level playing field, they are no longer interested in playing.

"plopped" LMAO

Why couldn't losers like you get "plopped" into one of those jobs? Did they just fall out of the heavens or something?

Posted by therewas47 on 10/3/2016 9:49:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:40:00 AM (view original):

Posted by therewas47 on 10/3/2016 7:54:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jamesny27 on 10/3/2016 5:27:00 AM (view original):
It's mostly the whiners leaving, majority of which are the long time coaches who were plopped in their cushy A/A+ jobs and used to 5-star recruits just falling in their laps season after season. Now that things have changed and become more of a level playing field, they are no longer interested in playing.

Replace "whiners" with "long time customers"

There are plenty of long time customers that aren't leaving.

Whiners is/was the correct term.

Their choice to leave, their choice to stay. They chose to take their ball and go home.

Come on you know the connotation of whiners is that they are all just sulking because they can't get the best players when in fact many of the people quitting are doing so for a multitude of reasons. It has nothing to do with being a whiner and a lot to do with the previous developer not addressing any serious concerns people had with the game for years and just doing what he wanted to do. Did he have a right to do it? Sure. Providing feedback (positive, neutral, or negative) about a product that you have invested years in is a right that customers have and is not whining, being a baby, or what other dumb crap people want to say. My opinion has been that it didn't matter if this was the best update ever people were going to be upset regardless because it didn't address their concerns. I don't think the update is awful but I'd have preferred a less drastic change to limit blowback and to limit the amount of unintended consequences that this update created (dealing with EEs, difficulties with job changes, nonsensical preferences, etc...). That said anyone that loves the update and wants to promote the game isn't a sunshine pumper and someone who hates what has been done to it isn't a whiner. Both are just ways of saying that the other side's positions don't matter. That refusal to listen to people with differing opinions is what has soured many on the game already. People with differing opinions that make coherent, logical points aren't whatever name people want to ascribe to them. They are customers that do have a stake in the game. As someone that loved playing many of them I hate to see them go and hope it is temporary.

I agree. I'll miss competing against vandydave, fd343ny, etc if they leave. I would never call them whiners. They have a right to fight for their preferences, as we all do. But there is a *lot* of personal stuff and "**** anyone who disagrees with me" attitude here. It's been a problem with these forums since I came back to WIS in 2013. It's why I barely participated in the forums at all until the updates were announced. I think 3.0 is pretty solidly a better game, and I'm not shy about engaging people in discussing it, especially when I find their argumentation misleading, at least for the moment. But I won't lie. I do look forward to a time when the forums can be a place for discussing the game that exists, without being derailed into a rant about what WIS did to their cheese.

There was always going to be attrition with a major update like this. I don't know what their operating margins are, but without some major advertising, the worlds probably won't re-populate significantly. They say they're going to do that, and I have no reason to think they won't. It would be utter foolishness to devote so many resources into the overhaul if they weren't going to promote it. Then we'll see. Hopefully the forums will be a more welcoming place at that point.

If they write concerns or ideas. Why not? I think it's obvious D3 needs another approach cause it seems to me, with the new system, it's the home run approach that is making owners leave. In d1, the random is too much, the prestige too low and ees is a mess. D2 is taking the lowest hit but the hr approach could derail it.

Put a temporary change to jobs logic, and those positions would fill real quick. We may have lost a few in the transition, but will be better in the long run. I would like to see one recruiting change from WIS.

If a player signs with a school during phase one, and the Human Coach vacates and it becomes a Sim, all his recruits "decommit" and become free agents again. This is because I am at a Big 10 School that got beaten out of everyone I recruited, and have four slots to fill during phase two.

Having made that comment about the "Wooden Exodus", I personally went from all Worlds to six. 3.0 is more time consuming, and the Worlds are running together now. No way I can recruit two worlds at the same time like I used to.

Posted by wvufan76 on 10/3/2016 2:00:00 PM (view original):
Put a temporary change to jobs logic, and those positions would fill real quick. We may have lost a few in the transition, but will be better in the long run. I would like to see one recruiting change from WIS.

If a player signs with a school during phase one, and the Human Coach vacates and it becomes a Sim, all his recruits "decommit" and become free agents again. This is because I am at a Big 10 School that got beaten out of everyone I recruited, and have four slots to fill during phase two.

I like that idea.

Posted by zorzii on 10/3/2016 11:27:00 AM (view original):
If they write concerns or ideas. Why not? I think it's obvious D3 needs another approach cause it seems to me, with the new system, it's the home run approach that is making owners leave. In d1, the random is too much, the prestige too low and ees is a mess. D2 is taking the lowest hit but the hr approach could derail it.

The saddest consequence of 3.0 is how it changed recruiting for DII and DIII. I'm probably in the minority but I thought DII and DIII were near perfect under the old system. DI was always the division that had issues. The new setup, for me, makes DII and DIII unplayable. I won't list the reasons since they have been stated by others ad nauseam. I'll stick around DI for a time to see if I can adjust but I will miss the purity of the lower divisions where I have spent a large part of my 12 years playing HD.

Agree! In old HD2.0 I think D2 was just about perfect. The only problem was I've never heard of any of those schools except for the ones near where I live, so it wasn't as fun as watching UCLA/USC battle or Duke/UNC or Syracuse/Michigan State battle it out. Queens(NY) vs. Saginaw Valley State just isn't as compelling.

Posted by gomiami1972 on 10/3/2016 4:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 10/3/2016 11:27:00 AM (view original):
If they write concerns or ideas. Why not? I think it's obvious D3 needs another approach cause it seems to me, with the new system, it's the home run approach that is making owners leave. In d1, the random is too much, the prestige too low and ees is a mess. D2 is taking the lowest hit but the hr approach could derail it.

The saddest consequence of 3.0 is how it changed recruiting for DII and DIII. I'm probably in the minority but I thought DII and DIII were near perfect under the old system. DI was always the division that had issues. The new setup, for me, makes DII and DIII unplayable. I won't list the reasons since they have been stated by others ad nauseam. I'll stick around DI for a time to see if I can adjust but I will miss the purity of the lower divisions where I have spent a large part of my 12 years playing HD.

This I agree with, UNLESS what people think is true where borderline low D1 type players are now correctly labeled D2 players. I plan on moving up to D1 with my Millersville team depending on how the D2 recruiting goes.