Posted by gillispie1 on 10/3/2016 5:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 9:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 9:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 8:43:00 AM (view original):
last season in wooden d1/d2/d3 - 115/104/85, this season 87/77/60 so far, that is 80 of 304 coaches, pretty close to the 25% number that some predicted. There still are quite a few fence sitters, important to keep them engaged. I recommend to those who like the game to stop trying to belittle those with issues about the update, and to start taking some of the concerns seriously. All the posting characterizing those who raise issues about the game as 'whiners' and 'haters' and such does nothing to help the game, and only adds fuel to the fire. There are some coaches who are doing a great job at looking forward and helping the game, the one that comes to mind who is worth copying is Chappel.

This can be said in reverse 1000 times over for a lot of the veterans that are leaving.

1000 times?

Seriously?

The point again was to try to keep the fence sitters. IMO the fence sitters are on the fence due to issues with the game, in many cases the same issues that the unfairly characterized 'whiners' and 'haters' raised.

And, since 25% of the coaches are gone, there is very little point in worrying about the 'reverse' position, they are basically not going to matter soon.

Oh well, I tried.

Yes, seriously. If you don't see that, then you are looking at things with rose colored glasses.

ard, you were never an idiot in my experience, and i'd recommend you keep it that way. without question, some folks on both sides of the issue have been whiny little children. its kind of like this election. everyone has bias, and you might think one side has more whiny idiots than the other, and thats OK - thats human. but if your head is so far up your rear end, that you think ONE side is full of whiny idiots, and the other is full of enlightened gentlemen, then you need to take a really good look in the mirror, so you can get a better picture of what an idiot really looks like. the HD battle is not one iota different in that regard. its easier to stomach the idiots who happen to agree with you, none of us are immune to that - but being closed minded and right makes you no less a fool than the person who is closed minded and wrong, and you may be falling into that trap.

all OR is saying is, maybe the best reaction to the idiots on the other side, is not to act like an idiot yourself. its good advice. 100% agree with the props to chap and other folks going about the situation in that manner.

I have no ill will toward anyone leaving or staying. Don't like the product, don't play it. But, don't try to tear it down for others.

I have a ton of respect for OR and yourself. Tried to study what you guys do, failed some as the system was changing with potential, etc. had some huge success as well. That's how it goes, evolve as the game does. Some do it better.

What has happened since the announcement of the change and the beta is constant tearing down of the product and other players by users on both sides of the fence. The forums have never been a friendly place to begin with and it has been utter rubbish since the beta and change. A lot of the forum attitude has carried over from a lot of the vets, as they have fostered a lot of the vitriol on these boards for far too long. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that.

Posted by jamesny27 on 10/3/2016 5:27:00 AM (view original):
It's mostly the whiners leaving, majority of which are the long time coaches who were plopped in their cushy A/A+ jobs and used to 5-star recruits just falling in their laps season after season. Now that things have changed and become more of a level playing field, they are no longer interested in playing.

I hope you're still using the term "whiners" when there's no HD game left to play...

Posted by nachopuzzle on 10/3/2016 5:21:00 PM (view original):
The futility of the situation is probably one of the worst parts. FOR YEARS, the admins ignored reasonable (and requested) feedback concerning problems like hiring/firing/prestige in DI, post-season conference recruiting money across all divisions, in season recruiting, game credits, etc etc etc. And instead of first fixing the relatively small things which would have serious and positive influences on the game, they rolled out an unsolicited product that fundamentally changed the nature of HD.

Just shows that bells and whistles don't go very well with a dog and pony show.

Excellently said, nach!

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 10:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 10/3/2016 5:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 9:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 9:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 8:43:00 AM (view original):
last season in wooden d1/d2/d3 - 115/104/85, this season 87/77/60 so far, that is 80 of 304 coaches, pretty close to the 25% number that some predicted. There still are quite a few fence sitters, important to keep them engaged. I recommend to those who like the game to stop trying to belittle those with issues about the update, and to start taking some of the concerns seriously. All the posting characterizing those who raise issues about the game as 'whiners' and 'haters' and such does nothing to help the game, and only adds fuel to the fire. There are some coaches who are doing a great job at looking forward and helping the game, the one that comes to mind who is worth copying is Chappel.

This can be said in reverse 1000 times over for a lot of the veterans that are leaving.

1000 times?

Seriously?

The point again was to try to keep the fence sitters. IMO the fence sitters are on the fence due to issues with the game, in many cases the same issues that the unfairly characterized 'whiners' and 'haters' raised.

And, since 25% of the coaches are gone, there is very little point in worrying about the 'reverse' position, they are basically not going to matter soon.

Oh well, I tried.

Yes, seriously. If you don't see that, then you are looking at things with rose colored glasses.

ard, you were never an idiot in my experience, and i'd recommend you keep it that way. without question, some folks on both sides of the issue have been whiny little children. its kind of like this election. everyone has bias, and you might think one side has more whiny idiots than the other, and thats OK - thats human. but if your head is so far up your rear end, that you think ONE side is full of whiny idiots, and the other is full of enlightened gentlemen, then you need to take a really good look in the mirror, so you can get a better picture of what an idiot really looks like. the HD battle is not one iota different in that regard. its easier to stomach the idiots who happen to agree with you, none of us are immune to that - but being closed minded and right makes you no less a fool than the person who is closed minded and wrong, and you may be falling into that trap.

all OR is saying is, maybe the best reaction to the idiots on the other side, is not to act like an idiot yourself. its good advice. 100% agree with the props to chap and other folks going about the situation in that manner.

I have no ill will toward anyone leaving or staying. Don't like the product, don't play it. But, don't try to tear it down for others.

I have a ton of respect for OR and yourself. Tried to study what you guys do, failed some as the system was changing with potential, etc. had some huge success as well. That's how it goes, evolve as the game does. Some do it better.

What has happened since the announcement of the change and the beta is constant tearing down of the product and other players by users on both sides of the fence. The forums have never been a friendly place to begin with and it has been utter rubbish since the beta and change. A lot of the forum attitude has carried over from a lot of the vets, as they have fostered a lot of the vitriol on these boards for far too long. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that.

the big difference is the vets tend to criticize the game, the other side launches personnal attacks on the vets. Now the vets have eventually fired back in kind with attacks, which is unfortunate, but yet completely predictable. It happens on near every internet board.

The game criticism is being done by folks or vets who in many cases have done game plans and such DAILY for almost ten calendar years, have put blood, sweat and tears into the game for a long time. If those who don't like the message the vets are conveying concentrated on refuting their message rather than attack them as people, there would be no vitriol on these boards.

So yes, I can effortlessly dispute what you said. Your POV is almost comical to me actually, and is so far off base that if it wasn't so funny, I'd call it pathetic. Again, you are not pathetic, your POV is. So I challenge you to refute the content of what the vets have said, rather than pointing a finger at them as 1000 TIMES WORSE which is plain and simply BS. Can you see now 'How anyone can dispute your POV?'

Posted by oldresorter on 10/4/2016 10:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 10:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 10/3/2016 5:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 9:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 9:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 8:43:00 AM (view original):
last season in wooden d1/d2/d3 - 115/104/85, this season 87/77/60 so far, that is 80 of 304 coaches, pretty close to the 25% number that some predicted. There still are quite a few fence sitters, important to keep them engaged. I recommend to those who like the game to stop trying to belittle those with issues about the update, and to start taking some of the concerns seriously. All the posting characterizing those who raise issues about the game as 'whiners' and 'haters' and such does nothing to help the game, and only adds fuel to the fire. There are some coaches who are doing a great job at looking forward and helping the game, the one that comes to mind who is worth copying is Chappel.

This can be said in reverse 1000 times over for a lot of the veterans that are leaving.

1000 times?

Seriously?

The point again was to try to keep the fence sitters. IMO the fence sitters are on the fence due to issues with the game, in many cases the same issues that the unfairly characterized 'whiners' and 'haters' raised.

And, since 25% of the coaches are gone, there is very little point in worrying about the 'reverse' position, they are basically not going to matter soon.

Oh well, I tried.

Yes, seriously. If you don't see that, then you are looking at things with rose colored glasses.

ard, you were never an idiot in my experience, and i'd recommend you keep it that way. without question, some folks on both sides of the issue have been whiny little children. its kind of like this election. everyone has bias, and you might think one side has more whiny idiots than the other, and thats OK - thats human. but if your head is so far up your rear end, that you think ONE side is full of whiny idiots, and the other is full of enlightened gentlemen, then you need to take a really good look in the mirror, so you can get a better picture of what an idiot really looks like. the HD battle is not one iota different in that regard. its easier to stomach the idiots who happen to agree with you, none of us are immune to that - but being closed minded and right makes you no less a fool than the person who is closed minded and wrong, and you may be falling into that trap.

all OR is saying is, maybe the best reaction to the idiots on the other side, is not to act like an idiot yourself. its good advice. 100% agree with the props to chap and other folks going about the situation in that manner.

I have no ill will toward anyone leaving or staying. Don't like the product, don't play it. But, don't try to tear it down for others.

I have a ton of respect for OR and yourself. Tried to study what you guys do, failed some as the system was changing with potential, etc. had some huge success as well. That's how it goes, evolve as the game does. Some do it better.

What has happened since the announcement of the change and the beta is constant tearing down of the product and other players by users on both sides of the fence. The forums have never been a friendly place to begin with and it has been utter rubbish since the beta and change. A lot of the forum attitude has carried over from a lot of the vets, as they have fostered a lot of the vitriol on these boards for far too long. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that.

the big difference is the vets tend to criticize the game, the other side launches personnal attacks on the vets. Now the vets have eventually fired back in kind with attacks, which is unfortunate, but yet completely predictable. It happens on near every internet board.

The game criticism is being done by folks or vets who in many cases have done game plans and such DAILY for almost ten calendar years, have put blood, sweat and tears into the game for a long time. If those who don't like the message the vets are conveying concentrated on refuting their message rather than attack them as people, there would be no vitriol on these boards.

So yes, I can effortlessly dispute what you said. Your POV is almost comical to me actually, and is so far off base that if it wasn't so funny, I'd call it pathetic. Again, you are not pathetic, your POV is. So I challenge you to refute the content of what the vets have said, rather than pointing a finger at them as 1000 TIMES WORSE which is plain and simply BS. Can you see now 'How anyone can dispute your POV?'

You are fighting a lost battle, OR. The ad hominem disease is chronic in our society today.

Posted by oldresorter on 10/4/2016 10:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 10:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 10/3/2016 5:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 9:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 9:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 8:43:00 AM (view original):
last season in wooden d1/d2/d3 - 115/104/85, this season 87/77/60 so far, that is 80 of 304 coaches, pretty close to the 25% number that some predicted. There still are quite a few fence sitters, important to keep them engaged. I recommend to those who like the game to stop trying to belittle those with issues about the update, and to start taking some of the concerns seriously. All the posting characterizing those who raise issues about the game as 'whiners' and 'haters' and such does nothing to help the game, and only adds fuel to the fire. There are some coaches who are doing a great job at looking forward and helping the game, the one that comes to mind who is worth copying is Chappel.

This can be said in reverse 1000 times over for a lot of the veterans that are leaving.

1000 times?

Seriously?

The point again was to try to keep the fence sitters. IMO the fence sitters are on the fence due to issues with the game, in many cases the same issues that the unfairly characterized 'whiners' and 'haters' raised.

And, since 25% of the coaches are gone, there is very little point in worrying about the 'reverse' position, they are basically not going to matter soon.

Oh well, I tried.

Yes, seriously. If you don't see that, then you are looking at things with rose colored glasses.

ard, you were never an idiot in my experience, and i'd recommend you keep it that way. without question, some folks on both sides of the issue have been whiny little children. its kind of like this election. everyone has bias, and you might think one side has more whiny idiots than the other, and thats OK - thats human. but if your head is so far up your rear end, that you think ONE side is full of whiny idiots, and the other is full of enlightened gentlemen, then you need to take a really good look in the mirror, so you can get a better picture of what an idiot really looks like. the HD battle is not one iota different in that regard. its easier to stomach the idiots who happen to agree with you, none of us are immune to that - but being closed minded and right makes you no less a fool than the person who is closed minded and wrong, and you may be falling into that trap.

all OR is saying is, maybe the best reaction to the idiots on the other side, is not to act like an idiot yourself. its good advice. 100% agree with the props to chap and other folks going about the situation in that manner.

I have no ill will toward anyone leaving or staying. Don't like the product, don't play it. But, don't try to tear it down for others.

I have a ton of respect for OR and yourself. Tried to study what you guys do, failed some as the system was changing with potential, etc. had some huge success as well. That's how it goes, evolve as the game does. Some do it better.

What has happened since the announcement of the change and the beta is constant tearing down of the product and other players by users on both sides of the fence. The forums have never been a friendly place to begin with and it has been utter rubbish since the beta and change. A lot of the forum attitude has carried over from a lot of the vets, as they have fostered a lot of the vitriol on these boards for far too long. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that.

the big difference is the vets tend to criticize the game, the other side launches personnal attacks on the vets. Now the vets have eventually fired back in kind with attacks, which is unfortunate, but yet completely predictable. It happens on near every internet board.

The game criticism is being done by folks or vets who in many cases have done game plans and such DAILY for almost ten calendar years, have put blood, sweat and tears into the game for a long time. If those who don't like the message the vets are conveying concentrated on refuting their message rather than attack them as people, there would be no vitriol on these boards.

So yes, I can effortlessly dispute what you said. Your POV is almost comical to me actually, and is so far off base that if it wasn't so funny, I'd call it pathetic. Again, you are not pathetic, your POV is. So I challenge you to refute the content of what the vets have said, rather than pointing a finger at them as 1000 TIMES WORSE which is plain and simply BS. Can you see now 'How anyone can dispute your POV?'

You are talking about just the change over. Fine.

I'm referring to the state of the forum as a whole. We cannot expect that the forum would be a reasonable place to have a conversation about a major change like this, when we cannot have a conversation about anything on the forum without it being some kind of nasty back and forth. This is not a new problem. I've been on this site for well over a decade and look at how many posts I have to the forum. When I first started, I avoided the forum like a plague, because of the constant nastiness. That isn't a pathetic POV. That is fact.

I still don't like coming to the forum. Just look at the various topics and the bickering and name calling. Again, not a new problem. The ground work for how people conduct themselves on the forum was laid a long time ago. Cannot expect it would change when something this major comes about.

Those that want to fight the good fight, will, but very few and far between.

Posted by ardthomp on 10/4/2016 10:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/4/2016 10:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 10:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 10/3/2016 5:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 9:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 9:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 8:43:00 AM (view original):
last season in wooden d1/d2/d3 - 115/104/85, this season 87/77/60 so far, that is 80 of 304 coaches, pretty close to the 25% number that some predicted. There still are quite a few fence sitters, important to keep them engaged. I recommend to those who like the game to stop trying to belittle those with issues about the update, and to start taking some of the concerns seriously. All the posting characterizing those who raise issues about the game as 'whiners' and 'haters' and such does nothing to help the game, and only adds fuel to the fire. There are some coaches who are doing a great job at looking forward and helping the game, the one that comes to mind who is worth copying is Chappel.

This can be said in reverse 1000 times over for a lot of the veterans that are leaving.

1000 times?

Seriously?

The point again was to try to keep the fence sitters. IMO the fence sitters are on the fence due to issues with the game, in many cases the same issues that the unfairly characterized 'whiners' and 'haters' raised.

And, since 25% of the coaches are gone, there is very little point in worrying about the 'reverse' position, they are basically not going to matter soon.

Oh well, I tried.

Yes, seriously. If you don't see that, then you are looking at things with rose colored glasses.

ard, you were never an idiot in my experience, and i'd recommend you keep it that way. without question, some folks on both sides of the issue have been whiny little children. its kind of like this election. everyone has bias, and you might think one side has more whiny idiots than the other, and thats OK - thats human. but if your head is so far up your rear end, that you think ONE side is full of whiny idiots, and the other is full of enlightened gentlemen, then you need to take a really good look in the mirror, so you can get a better picture of what an idiot really looks like. the HD battle is not one iota different in that regard. its easier to stomach the idiots who happen to agree with you, none of us are immune to that - but being closed minded and right makes you no less a fool than the person who is closed minded and wrong, and you may be falling into that trap.

all OR is saying is, maybe the best reaction to the idiots on the other side, is not to act like an idiot yourself. its good advice. 100% agree with the props to chap and other folks going about the situation in that manner.

I have no ill will toward anyone leaving or staying. Don't like the product, don't play it. But, don't try to tear it down for others.

I have a ton of respect for OR and yourself. Tried to study what you guys do, failed some as the system was changing with potential, etc. had some huge success as well. That's how it goes, evolve as the game does. Some do it better.

What has happened since the announcement of the change and the beta is constant tearing down of the product and other players by users on both sides of the fence. The forums have never been a friendly place to begin with and it has been utter rubbish since the beta and change. A lot of the forum attitude has carried over from a lot of the vets, as they have fostered a lot of the vitriol on these boards for far too long. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that.

the big difference is the vets tend to criticize the game, the other side launches personnal attacks on the vets. Now the vets have eventually fired back in kind with attacks, which is unfortunate, but yet completely predictable. It happens on near every internet board.

The game criticism is being done by folks or vets who in many cases have done game plans and such DAILY for almost ten calendar years, have put blood, sweat and tears into the game for a long time. If those who don't like the message the vets are conveying concentrated on refuting their message rather than attack them as people, there would be no vitriol on these boards.

So yes, I can effortlessly dispute what you said. Your POV is almost comical to me actually, and is so far off base that if it wasn't so funny, I'd call it pathetic. Again, you are not pathetic, your POV is. So I challenge you to refute the content of what the vets have said, rather than pointing a finger at them as 1000 TIMES WORSE which is plain and simply BS. Can you see now 'How anyone can dispute your POV?'

You are talking about just the change over. Fine.

I'm referring to the state of the forum as a whole. We cannot expect that the forum would be a reasonable place to have a conversation about a major change like this, when we cannot have a conversation about anything on the forum without it being some kind of nasty back and forth. This is not a new problem. I've been on this site for well over a decade and look at how many posts I have to the forum. When I first started, I avoided the forum like a plague, because of the constant nastiness. That isn't a pathetic POV. That is fact.

I still don't like coming to the forum. Just look at the various topics and the bickering and name calling. Again, not a new problem. The ground work for how people conduct themselves on the forum was laid a long time ago. Cannot expect it would change when something this major comes about.

Those that want to fight the good fight, will, but very few and far between.

You realize it's the internet, right?

I've been around a while too. Look at the number of my posts. I'd wager that the vast majority of them were made to try to be helpful or to be funny. I'll also own that some non-negligible percentage of them have been "negative" in some capacity, although I believe that sometimes negative attention can result in positive improvement, but that's not what we're really talking about.

Most of the whining vets that are leaving have tried to be helpful and interactive over the years. Yes the community sometimes is acrimonious, there are a few hundred individuals, all safely behind the anonymity of a monitor, so, yeah. But it's also been a generally helpful community, especially to those honestly seeking discussion on any number of issues.

If the overall levels of "toxicity" are too high for your tastes, so be it, but it sounds like that's been the case long before this current "crisis", so maybe just go back to doing that then?

Do I qualify as a veteran? I started HD in Sept 2013. I think veterans are those that were here during the pre-potential days? I'm really not a newbie I don't think... I'm kind of a "Tweener"... so maybe there are 3 levels of owners here... veterans, tweeners and newbies...

Posted by dacj501 on 10/4/2016 11:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/4/2016 10:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/4/2016 10:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 10:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 10/3/2016 5:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 9:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 9:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 8:43:00 AM (view original):
last season in wooden d1/d2/d3 - 115/104/85, this season 87/77/60 so far, that is 80 of 304 coaches, pretty close to the 25% number that some predicted. There still are quite a few fence sitters, important to keep them engaged. I recommend to those who like the game to stop trying to belittle those with issues about the update, and to start taking some of the concerns seriously. All the posting characterizing those who raise issues about the game as 'whiners' and 'haters' and such does nothing to help the game, and only adds fuel to the fire. There are some coaches who are doing a great job at looking forward and helping the game, the one that comes to mind who is worth copying is Chappel.

This can be said in reverse 1000 times over for a lot of the veterans that are leaving.

1000 times?

Seriously?

The point again was to try to keep the fence sitters. IMO the fence sitters are on the fence due to issues with the game, in many cases the same issues that the unfairly characterized 'whiners' and 'haters' raised.

And, since 25% of the coaches are gone, there is very little point in worrying about the 'reverse' position, they are basically not going to matter soon.

Oh well, I tried.

Yes, seriously. If you don't see that, then you are looking at things with rose colored glasses.

ard, you were never an idiot in my experience, and i'd recommend you keep it that way. without question, some folks on both sides of the issue have been whiny little children. its kind of like this election. everyone has bias, and you might think one side has more whiny idiots than the other, and thats OK - thats human. but if your head is so far up your rear end, that you think ONE side is full of whiny idiots, and the other is full of enlightened gentlemen, then you need to take a really good look in the mirror, so you can get a better picture of what an idiot really looks like. the HD battle is not one iota different in that regard. its easier to stomach the idiots who happen to agree with you, none of us are immune to that - but being closed minded and right makes you no less a fool than the person who is closed minded and wrong, and you may be falling into that trap.

all OR is saying is, maybe the best reaction to the idiots on the other side, is not to act like an idiot yourself. its good advice. 100% agree with the props to chap and other folks going about the situation in that manner.

I have no ill will toward anyone leaving or staying. Don't like the product, don't play it. But, don't try to tear it down for others.

I have a ton of respect for OR and yourself. Tried to study what you guys do, failed some as the system was changing with potential, etc. had some huge success as well. That's how it goes, evolve as the game does. Some do it better.

What has happened since the announcement of the change and the beta is constant tearing down of the product and other players by users on both sides of the fence. The forums have never been a friendly place to begin with and it has been utter rubbish since the beta and change. A lot of the forum attitude has carried over from a lot of the vets, as they have fostered a lot of the vitriol on these boards for far too long. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that.

the big difference is the vets tend to criticize the game, the other side launches personnal attacks on the vets. Now the vets have eventually fired back in kind with attacks, which is unfortunate, but yet completely predictable. It happens on near every internet board.

The game criticism is being done by folks or vets who in many cases have done game plans and such DAILY for almost ten calendar years, have put blood, sweat and tears into the game for a long time. If those who don't like the message the vets are conveying concentrated on refuting their message rather than attack them as people, there would be no vitriol on these boards.

So yes, I can effortlessly dispute what you said. Your POV is almost comical to me actually, and is so far off base that if it wasn't so funny, I'd call it pathetic. Again, you are not pathetic, your POV is. So I challenge you to refute the content of what the vets have said, rather than pointing a finger at them as 1000 TIMES WORSE which is plain and simply BS. Can you see now 'How anyone can dispute your POV?'

You are talking about just the change over. Fine.

I'm referring to the state of the forum as a whole. We cannot expect that the forum would be a reasonable place to have a conversation about a major change like this, when we cannot have a conversation about anything on the forum without it being some kind of nasty back and forth. This is not a new problem. I've been on this site for well over a decade and look at how many posts I have to the forum. When I first started, I avoided the forum like a plague, because of the constant nastiness. That isn't a pathetic POV. That is fact.

I still don't like coming to the forum. Just look at the various topics and the bickering and name calling. Again, not a new problem. The ground work for how people conduct themselves on the forum was laid a long time ago. Cannot expect it would change when something this major comes about.

Those that want to fight the good fight, will, but very few and far between.

You realize it's the internet, right?

I've been around a while too. Look at the number of my posts. I'd wager that the vast majority of them were made to try to be helpful or to be funny. I'll also own that some non-negligible percentage of them have been "negative" in some capacity, although I believe that sometimes negative attention can result in positive improvement, but that's not what we're really talking about.

Most of the whining vets that are leaving have tried to be helpful and interactive over the years. Yes the community sometimes is acrimonious, there are a few hundred individuals, all safely behind the anonymity of a monitor, so, yeah. But it's also been a generally helpful community, especially to those honestly seeking discussion on any number of issues.

If the overall levels of "toxicity" are too high for your tastes, so be it, but it sounds like that's been the case long before this current "crisis", so maybe just go back to doing that then?

The levels of toxicity have been in place for a long time is the point. It isn't new. We can't be surprised that now, when things need to be discussed, that the toxicity would go away.

Posted by npb7768 on 10/4/2016 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Do I qualify as a veteran? I started HD in Sept 2013. I think veterans are those that were here during the pre-potential days? I'm really not a newbie I don't think... I'm kind of a "Tweener"... so maybe there are 3 levels of owners here... veterans, tweeners and newbies...

idk, but I've been here over 7 and potential was already a thing, and I am certain I am one of the "whiners" being referenced, so I must count as one...

Posted by npb7768 on 10/4/2016 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Do I qualify as a veteran? I started HD in Sept 2013. I think veterans are those that were here during the pre-potential days? I'm really not a newbie I don't think... I'm kind of a "Tweener"... so maybe there are 3 levels of owners here... veterans, tweeners and newbies...

I would say the guys pre-potential are really like the pioneers of the game. A lot of guys around now came in right after or like me, right before potential. I was in right before the potential era, but had barely learned the game before the change.

Posted by dacj501 on 10/4/2016 11:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 10/4/2016 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Do I qualify as a veteran? I started HD in Sept 2013. I think veterans are those that were here during the pre-potential days? I'm really not a newbie I don't think... I'm kind of a "Tweener"... so maybe there are 3 levels of owners here... veterans, tweeners and newbies...

idk, but I've been here over 7 and potential was already a thing, and I am certain I am one of the "whiners" being referenced, so I must count as one...

My favorite threads include types like the one on the link below, started by some weirdo-sicko. Nice touch by dacj insulting my in-laws in Fulton. Lol. :o)

https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=487234

Have to chuckle at the "you know it's the Internet, right?" sentiment. There are places (even on the Internet!) where people can go to have somewhat intelligent discussions without having to navigate through 1/4 of the jackassery that goes on here. It's not like the whole internet is Reddit vs Tumblr. The trick is, those places normally require some degree of moderation, which appears to be generally lacking here.

It strikes me as kind of myopic and naive for anyone to claim the other side started it. The whining from all sides breaks down to a couple general templates, essentially "how dare you have preferences that compete with my own!" and "I am obviously more important to the WIS bottom line than you are!". It doesn't matter who you're responding to, everyone's responding to somebody.

Nobody and everybody started it, and it's probably time for WIS to finish it, at least before they try to start any big ad push.

Posted by ardthomp on 10/4/2016 10:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/4/2016 10:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 10:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 10/3/2016 5:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 9:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 9:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 8:43:00 AM (view original):
last season in wooden d1/d2/d3 - 115/104/85, this season 87/77/60 so far, that is 80 of 304 coaches, pretty close to the 25% number that some predicted. There still are quite a few fence sitters, important to keep them engaged. I recommend to those who like the game to stop trying to belittle those with issues about the update, and to start taking some of the concerns seriously. All the posting characterizing those who raise issues about the game as 'whiners' and 'haters' and such does nothing to help the game, and only adds fuel to the fire. There are some coaches who are doing a great job at looking forward and helping the game, the one that comes to mind who is worth copying is Chappel.

This can be said in reverse 1000 times over for a lot of the veterans that are leaving.

1000 times?

Seriously?

The point again was to try to keep the fence sitters. IMO the fence sitters are on the fence due to issues with the game, in many cases the same issues that the unfairly characterized 'whiners' and 'haters' raised.

And, since 25% of the coaches are gone, there is very little point in worrying about the 'reverse' position, they are basically not going to matter soon.

Oh well, I tried.

Yes, seriously. If you don't see that, then you are looking at things with rose colored glasses.

ard, you were never an idiot in my experience, and i'd recommend you keep it that way. without question, some folks on both sides of the issue have been whiny little children. its kind of like this election. everyone has bias, and you might think one side has more whiny idiots than the other, and thats OK - thats human. but if your head is so far up your rear end, that you think ONE side is full of whiny idiots, and the other is full of enlightened gentlemen, then you need to take a really good look in the mirror, so you can get a better picture of what an idiot really looks like. the HD battle is not one iota different in that regard. its easier to stomach the idiots who happen to agree with you, none of us are immune to that - but being closed minded and right makes you no less a fool than the person who is closed minded and wrong, and you may be falling into that trap.

all OR is saying is, maybe the best reaction to the idiots on the other side, is not to act like an idiot yourself. its good advice. 100% agree with the props to chap and other folks going about the situation in that manner.

I have no ill will toward anyone leaving or staying. Don't like the product, don't play it. But, don't try to tear it down for others.

I have a ton of respect for OR and yourself. Tried to study what you guys do, failed some as the system was changing with potential, etc. had some huge success as well. That's how it goes, evolve as the game does. Some do it better.

What has happened since the announcement of the change and the beta is constant tearing down of the product and other players by users on both sides of the fence. The forums have never been a friendly place to begin with and it has been utter rubbish since the beta and change. A lot of the forum attitude has carried over from a lot of the vets, as they have fostered a lot of the vitriol on these boards for far too long. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that.

the big difference is the vets tend to criticize the game, the other side launches personnal attacks on the vets. Now the vets have eventually fired back in kind with attacks, which is unfortunate, but yet completely predictable. It happens on near every internet board.

The game criticism is being done by folks or vets who in many cases have done game plans and such DAILY for almost ten calendar years, have put blood, sweat and tears into the game for a long time. If those who don't like the message the vets are conveying concentrated on refuting their message rather than attack them as people, there would be no vitriol on these boards.

So yes, I can effortlessly dispute what you said. Your POV is almost comical to me actually, and is so far off base that if it wasn't so funny, I'd call it pathetic. Again, you are not pathetic, your POV is. So I challenge you to refute the content of what the vets have said, rather than pointing a finger at them as 1000 TIMES WORSE which is plain and simply BS. Can you see now 'How anyone can dispute your POV?'

You are talking about just the change over. Fine.

I'm referring to the state of the forum as a whole. We cannot expect that the forum would be a reasonable place to have a conversation about a major change like this, when we cannot have a conversation about anything on the forum without it being some kind of nasty back and forth. This is not a new problem. I've been on this site for well over a decade and look at how many posts I have to the forum. When I first started, I avoided the forum like a plague, because of the constant nastiness. That isn't a pathetic POV. That is fact.

I still don't like coming to the forum. Just look at the various topics and the bickering and name calling. Again, not a new problem. The ground work for how people conduct themselves on the forum was laid a long time ago. Cannot expect it would change when something this major comes about.

Those that want to fight the good fight, will, but very few and far between.

I am talking about the change only.

Posted by npb7768 on 10/4/2016 11:18:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dacj501 on 10/4/2016 11:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 10/4/2016 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Do I qualify as a veteran? I started HD in Sept 2013. I think veterans are those that were here during the pre-potential days? I'm really not a newbie I don't think... I'm kind of a "Tweener"... so maybe there are 3 levels of owners here... veterans, tweeners and newbies...

idk, but I've been here over 7 and potential was already a thing, and I am certain I am one of the "whiners" being referenced, so I must count as one...

My favorite threads include types like the one on the link below, started by some weirdo-sicko. Nice touch by dacj insulting my in-laws in Fulton. Lol. :o)

https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=487234

I have nothing but respect for dacj. He came in a little after me and he immediately made a huge contribution to the worlds he was in. Trying to setup non-conference challenges (with sometimes little participation), helping others when he needed help in the game. HE is the kind of guy that the game will miss if/when he leaves.