Posted by oldresorter on 10/4/2016 11:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/4/2016 10:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/4/2016 10:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 10:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 10/3/2016 5:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 9:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 9:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ardthomp on 10/3/2016 8:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 10/3/2016 8:43:00 AM (view original):
last season in wooden d1/d2/d3 - 115/104/85, this season 87/77/60 so far, that is 80 of 304 coaches, pretty close to the 25% number that some predicted. There still are quite a few fence sitters, important to keep them engaged. I recommend to those who like the game to stop trying to belittle those with issues about the update, and to start taking some of the concerns seriously. All the posting characterizing those who raise issues about the game as 'whiners' and 'haters' and such does nothing to help the game, and only adds fuel to the fire. There are some coaches who are doing a great job at looking forward and helping the game, the one that comes to mind who is worth copying is Chappel.

This can be said in reverse 1000 times over for a lot of the veterans that are leaving.

1000 times?

Seriously?

The point again was to try to keep the fence sitters. IMO the fence sitters are on the fence due to issues with the game, in many cases the same issues that the unfairly characterized 'whiners' and 'haters' raised.

And, since 25% of the coaches are gone, there is very little point in worrying about the 'reverse' position, they are basically not going to matter soon.

Oh well, I tried.

Yes, seriously. If you don't see that, then you are looking at things with rose colored glasses.

ard, you were never an idiot in my experience, and i'd recommend you keep it that way. without question, some folks on both sides of the issue have been whiny little children. its kind of like this election. everyone has bias, and you might think one side has more whiny idiots than the other, and thats OK - thats human. but if your head is so far up your rear end, that you think ONE side is full of whiny idiots, and the other is full of enlightened gentlemen, then you need to take a really good look in the mirror, so you can get a better picture of what an idiot really looks like. the HD battle is not one iota different in that regard. its easier to stomach the idiots who happen to agree with you, none of us are immune to that - but being closed minded and right makes you no less a fool than the person who is closed minded and wrong, and you may be falling into that trap.

all OR is saying is, maybe the best reaction to the idiots on the other side, is not to act like an idiot yourself. its good advice. 100% agree with the props to chap and other folks going about the situation in that manner.

I have no ill will toward anyone leaving or staying. Don't like the product, don't play it. But, don't try to tear it down for others.

I have a ton of respect for OR and yourself. Tried to study what you guys do, failed some as the system was changing with potential, etc. had some huge success as well. That's how it goes, evolve as the game does. Some do it better.

What has happened since the announcement of the change and the beta is constant tearing down of the product and other players by users on both sides of the fence. The forums have never been a friendly place to begin with and it has been utter rubbish since the beta and change. A lot of the forum attitude has carried over from a lot of the vets, as they have fostered a lot of the vitriol on these boards for far too long. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that.

the big difference is the vets tend to criticize the game, the other side launches personnal attacks on the vets. Now the vets have eventually fired back in kind with attacks, which is unfortunate, but yet completely predictable. It happens on near every internet board.

The game criticism is being done by folks or vets who in many cases have done game plans and such DAILY for almost ten calendar years, have put blood, sweat and tears into the game for a long time. If those who don't like the message the vets are conveying concentrated on refuting their message rather than attack them as people, there would be no vitriol on these boards.

So yes, I can effortlessly dispute what you said. Your POV is almost comical to me actually, and is so far off base that if it wasn't so funny, I'd call it pathetic. Again, you are not pathetic, your POV is. So I challenge you to refute the content of what the vets have said, rather than pointing a finger at them as 1000 TIMES WORSE which is plain and simply BS. Can you see now 'How anyone can dispute your POV?'

You are talking about just the change over. Fine.

I'm referring to the state of the forum as a whole. We cannot expect that the forum would be a reasonable place to have a conversation about a major change like this, when we cannot have a conversation about anything on the forum without it being some kind of nasty back and forth. This is not a new problem. I've been on this site for well over a decade and look at how many posts I have to the forum. When I first started, I avoided the forum like a plague, because of the constant nastiness. That isn't a pathetic POV. That is fact.

I still don't like coming to the forum. Just look at the various topics and the bickering and name calling. Again, not a new problem. The ground work for how people conduct themselves on the forum was laid a long time ago. Cannot expect it would change when something this major comes about.

Those that want to fight the good fight, will, but very few and far between.

I am talking about the change only.

And I think that is where we were off from the start. Apologies.

Posted by npb7768 on 10/4/2016 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Do I qualify as a veteran? I started HD in Sept 2013. I think veterans are those that were here during the pre-potential days? I'm really not a newbie I don't think... I'm kind of a "Tweener"... so maybe there are 3 levels of owners here... veterans, tweeners and newbies...

I might define the vets as pre - fatigue change. But if I had to guess, many of the most vocal 'vets', date back way before that, before I started, which I can't even exactly recall, but was around year 6-10 of most the old worlds.

But yes, I would think there are probably many levels and layers. Certainly since 2013, you've more than demonstrated a 'love' of this sort of gaming. I think I might have started around 2004???? My son was 14 then, he started b4 me. He still is playing the game too.

I've been playing since 2009.
The transition from 2.0 to 3.0 hasn't been difficult for me in the sense that I know what I'm doing recruiting-wise. The difficulty has been in seeing what I thought was near-perfection at D3 in 2.0 to what we have now, which isn't my favorite. But...
I want to play.
I want to be the Coach at Oberlin.
Burying my hatred for the update was difficult, but I'm firmly entrenched in the "I'm staying" camp now. Not because I support the changes, but simply because I want to play.
Adaptation.
I respect both sides of the argument because for the most part there are some AWESOME Coaches on both sides that have helped the game grow. I wish those that were leaving would stay, but I understand completely why they're vacating teams.
One more wish...it would be great if we could get the Forums back to where we came for game analysis, depth chart questions and things like that. The bitterness and personal attacks, of which I'm guilty of as well, are just too dang much to stomach. We're better people than that.

There's a part of this conversation that shouldn't go without some response.
"the big difference is the vets tend to criticize the game, the other side launches personnal attacks on the vets. Now the vets have eventually fired back in kind with attacks, which is unfortunate, but yet completely predictable."

That is a blanket defense of "the vets" that simply isn't warranted or accurate. As the subject of innumerable ad hominem attacks, I can tell you without doubt that many of them were unwarranted attacks after my comments on the game, usually (not always) in defense of a particular aspect of the changes. I can understand that a "vet" who has played a game for months or years would be upset that the game was changing and he will have to learn new skills if he is going to continue at his same level of achievement. But being upset at the changing game in no way justifies ad hominem attacks at anyone. Of course, neither does defense of the game, nor does any honest difference of opinion about the game. Neither game defenders nor opponents are ever justified in personal attacks (yes, including me). Moreover, there is no justification under any circumstance for the level of hate posts and infantile name-calling ("Spudtard" for example) emanating from a few of the "vets." Whether you are a fan of the new game or disappointed in the changes and leaving it, let's do it with a little class, and if that is beyond you, just keep it zipped.

Posted by CoachSpud on 10/4/2016 4:57:00 PM (view original):
There's a part of this conversation that shouldn't go without some response.
"the big difference is the vets tend to criticize the game, the other side launches personnal attacks on the vets. Now the vets have eventually fired back in kind with attacks, which is unfortunate, but yet completely predictable."

That is a blanket defense of "the vets" that simply isn't warranted or accurate. As the subject of innumerable ad hominem attacks, I can tell you without doubt that many of them were unwarranted attacks after my comments on the game, usually (not always) in defense of a particular aspect of the changes. I can understand that a "vet" who has played a game for months or years would be upset that the game was changing and he will have to learn new skills if he is going to continue at his same level of achievement. But being upset at the changing game in no way justifies ad hominem attacks at anyone. Of course, neither does defense of the game, nor does any honest difference of opinion about the game. Neither game defenders nor opponents are ever justified in personal attacks (yes, including me). Moreover, there is no justification under any circumstance for the level of hate posts and infantile name-calling ("Spudtard" for example) emanating from a few of the "vets." Whether you are a fan of the new game or disappointed in the changes and leaving it, let's do it with a little class, and if that is beyond you, just keep it zipped.

Very little of this is true.

Sorry, but anyone who reads the forums knows it is true.

Posted by CoachSpud on 10/4/2016 5:28:00 PM (view original):
Sorry, but anyone who reads the forums knows it is true.

Oh my fault. You're right. You're super duper respectful to everyone and people are just jerks to you for absolutely no reason. Sorry I missed that.

Good example. Thank you. But it really wasn't necessary.

The chief hater can probably spew worse, though.

Posted by ardthomp on 10/4/2016 11:09:00 AM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 10/4/2016 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Do I qualify as a veteran? I started HD in Sept 2013. I think veterans are those that were here during the pre-potential days? I'm really not a newbie I don't think... I'm kind of a "Tweener"... so maybe there are 3 levels of owners here... veterans, tweeners and newbies...

I would say the guys pre-potential are really like the pioneers of the game. A lot of guys around now came in right after or like me, right before potential. I was in right before the potential era, but had barely learned the game before the change.

Yeah, I always think of a vet as someone who played the game during the pre-potential era. Pre-potential is essentially 1.0, potential is 2.0 and those of us who have lived through the first two major versions of the game now get to enjoy a third jumbling. I, for one who has been here since 2004, seem to get worse every time the game is re-written.

Posted by CoachSpud on 10/4/2016 5:28:00 PM (view original):
Sorry, but anyone who reads the forums knows it is true.

Everyone in BETA was an eyewitness to your insulting comments. You insulted entire groups of people and think its OK, then don't understand when you get called out on it. You were unable to post anything of value without tearing down coaches who didn't agree with your views of the game. The ONLY difference between you and them are you don't call out individual names. But you are just as abusive.

The fact that you can't see you were the biggest cancer in the BETA forums is laughable. But keep hiding behind that 2nd account Spudhole, That's what you are good at.

I'm a vet.

Failure.

Unwillingness to listen to customers is why WIS did this to themselves.

I've said over and over I hope the game lives on for those who stay, but even the staunchest supporter of HD 3.0 if they are honest with themselves must admit that the early returns are god awful and are a huge problem.

Posted by jsajsa on 10/4/2016 9:54:00 PM (view original):
Failure.

Unwillingness to listen to customers is why WIS did this to themselves.

I've said over and over I hope the game lives on for those who stay, but even the staunchest supporter of HD 3.0 if they are honest with themselves must admit that the early returns are god awful and are a huge problem.

That's kind of funny. Because as much as I want to hate on 3.0 (stubborn to change my ways), when I am honest with myself, I realize that 3.0 is going to ultimately be a better game. Was it a smart move, I don't know, but neither will anyone for a bit of time.

It's not about whether it will be a better game. It's about the idiocy of driving away what looks to be at least a third of your customers. It could end up being a better game and still be a massive failure if WIS can't recoup the losses from the exodus, and it looks like that's going to be an extremely tall task.

Exactly jsajsa. For all newbies, potential made the game way better, but the way it was rolled out ****** off a lot of customers and we lost about 25% or so. I don't think it ever really came back. You can look at the world population data.

HD3 might be a better game, but unless the vets concerns are addressed, we'll lose another 25%, and I don't know if the game can survive such a small user base.