This will be controversial because the guys that do it get indignant about it so I'll just state my point of view and leave it at that.  Any personal attacks, name calling or ungentlemanly behavior in general will reported  I don't intend to answer anything because this is how I view it and you won't change it.  There will be people that agree and people that disagree.  So be it.  No need to get personal about it.  You'll never convince me that there isn't enough talent out there to NOT go after guys that are green.  Battle over guys that come up yellow.  But if another coach has a guy green (he shows up red to you), leave him alone.  Especially in the 1 or 2 cycles before signing.

Point number 1.  When a guy is green on the last day of signing and you go after him, you are poaching or sniping whatever you want to call it.  It is totally unnecessary to go after another coaches recruits.  There is PLENTY of talent out there.  I find most of my STLs AFTER signing is well under way.  Since I have published this certain coaches have made sure to check my guys and my brothers' guys that are green and we regularly get the same guys poaching our recruits which leaves us less money to go after the STLs.  So I KNOW for a fact there are better guys still undecided out there than we have or they want .  Most of the times when they are successful, yea they got a good recruit . but we do well enough it doesn't hurt our teams.  That is not true for everyone.
 
Point 2.  What sniping does is to show me that the other coach(s) are not very talented in their own recruiting.  Here is my reasoning on that.  My brother and I NEVER do it and we have very good teams.  Maybe as one coach put it, it is effective for winning an NC but is that because his team got so much better by sniping or because he weakens his opponents by sniping?   For me it is a detriment to the game.  If I have to screw somebody else over to get my enjoyment out of a GAME?  Well to me it just doesn't compute.  Time to do something else.

Point 3.  There is already so much apathy in this game, that screwing with another coach is like putting one more nail in the coffin.  Look at it from his side.  He works his butt off to get the SIMs off,  He invests a bunch of money in the guy.  He is in that goup of teams struggling to make the playoffs.  He finally has a decent crop of recruits and then the teams with the prestige come in late and snatch them out from under him.  He's low on cash and ends up getting SIM players.  How much of that do you think the guy is going to tolerate before leaving?  And I don't blame him when he goes.  Again,  There are NOT that many human teams per World.  There is MORE than enough talent to go around by picking just undecideds and SIMs.  Look at how good some of the SIM players have gotten to be.  It's because humans have overlooked those guys.  The proof is right under our noses yet certain coaches will defend their right to snipe.  Well true you can but should you?  If you consider yourself a top recruiter there should be no need for it.  It would be different IF the Worlds were full but right now the only readon to do it is to screw up somebody else.  Gino and I have a rating system tweaked from yatzrs but at the end of the recruit I see TOP guys in both yatzrs and ours that go undrafted.  Where is the need to snipe?

So in closing.  I just plain don't do it.  My brother doesn't do it.  Jibe doesn't do it.  Even Gino won't unless somebody screws him first.  Yet look at our teams.  They are top competetive teams.  I just think it is wrong.  Knowing that there are a bunch of STLs out there after signing just amazes me that some coaches go after other teams green players.  To me that is just stupid.  I ALWAYS have 2-4 STLs on my teams.  I've seen time and time on here that people rarely even see them.  Do you think that maybe if you'd start looking at undecideds instead of other coaches Green recruits it might help find them?  Of course you could do what people do to my brother and I and just go through all our green ones just before signing and snag one.  That to me is just wrong and pathetic but that has been happening a lot.  I now put money into guys I don't even want, turn them green cheap, just so these unscrupulous coaches at least have to go through some rags to find my good guys.  It is money spent that could be going for STLs but I still have to have some good recruits.

I left on point out.  The home turf connendrum.  Yes I expect you to defend your home turf.  BUT do it early in the recruit.  If someone is on it and you let it go until the last couple cycles, you are not protecting your turf but sniping.  I rarely go over 500 miles from home.  But that is just me.  I know there are really good players farther but the talent pool is so deep it isn't necessary.

You gotta remember, man, that some people miss the first few days of recruiting sometimes (as I did a few seasons back), and if they are in a thin recruiting region, that complicates things. At North Dakota, my first class was all sniped recruits, because I didn't start recruiting until the cycle after signings began. By that time, there was a grand total of 20 recruits in 250 miles, 43 in 360.

Now, in the Dakotas in Rockne, all the schools are full. So you are going to have to battle or go long distance. I never go long distance, so I had to hop on some of these guys. I sniped all of my signings, out of necessity. I usually snipe more than once per season. You can call it whatever you want, but it is not illegal (as you have said). It may be frowned upon by some coaches, but I utilize it. It is never anything personal, it's just recruiting.

If I have a recruiting advantage(distance or prestige) over another team , and this is my best option.  It would be stupid of me to pass up the opportunity to poach that player.

Also some people may not be very good at recruiting, and poaching is the strategy they choose to use.  I can't fault them for that.

I have done it.  I don't try to regularly do it, but sometimes it is necessary.  For example:

I recruit for Sam Houston State in Bryant.  I targeted many defensive players and running backs in the area.  Most were also being pursued by div 1a Texas teams.  It would be dumb of me to try and battle for those guys.  But then I noticed two Texas players that had Cal Poly and Florida A & M on them.  Both are very good coaches, and I didn't want to end up battling them for the players.  So I waited......until the night before signings and then dropped a good load on each recruit and made it known that they weren't coming into Texas for free.

If you are going for top-level talent, there is not "plenty of talent" out there.  There are recruits that are better than others.  If another guy is on that better recruit and you have money to fight him for it, why in the world wouldn't you?  Isn't the point to make your team as good as possible?

Maybe your teams wouldn't just be "very good" and instead be NC-caliber if you actually went after the best recruits instead of saving up money for STL's that will never reach the level of the better recruits anyway.

Posted by onside on 4/28/2012 1:34:00 PM (view original):
If you are going for top-level talent, there is not "plenty of talent" out there.  There are recruits that are better than others.  If another guy is on that better recruit and you have money to fight him for it, why in the world wouldn't you?  Isn't the point to make your team as good as possible?

Maybe your teams wouldn't just be "very good" and instead be NC-caliber if you actually went after the best recruits instead of saving up money for STL's that will never reach the level of the better recruits anyway.

You could be right.  But I don't think so.  There is plenty of talent out there. The problem is probably my conscience.  I just can't bring myself to screw over another coach.  When I look at the rating system and see the guys that go unsigned it amazes me.  When I find STLs and sign them after signings are well under way it tells me that there IS plenty out there.  I'm dead certain that if someone that had the gameplanning down ran my teams, they would win NCs regularly.  I do good with the defense but not the offense.  The problem for my teams is not the talent.  Now DIA is a battle from the get go.  DIAA and DII though, the talent is huge.  There are STLS out there like you can't imagine and they have good numbers to start.  DIA you almost have to do a little sniping just to defend your territory.  But you arent getting bad coaches for the most part.  DII is different.  You get guys moving up that aren't ready.  If they luck into a guy I say let them have him.  There are plenty more.  DIAA and DII are rich in STLs.  If you're sniping there you need to seriously look at your recruiting standards.  Think about it.  When you get to the top of your vision in a division,  How many of those guys that you see that others can't are really good prospects?  80% have all reached their potential.  They'd be fine for a team that JUST got there but to get to the top you need to sign guys and let them grow.  I wish this game had actual growth potential like HBD.  That would probably make it too easy to find STLs though.  It would cut down on sniping but battles would explode.

I said I wouldn't answer but if it stays civil I don't mind discussing.  I just think sniping/poaching is more of a detriment than a help but then again there are many ways to skin the cat.

In 1aa I find you almost HAVE to snipe.  If I see a guy in my area that  has 3 sims on him, and he's an iffy 1a player, but a great 1aa player.  I will just throw a phone call on him, just to put him on my list.  I'll then wait until the last moment to see if anyone jumps on him.  If its someone that I can easily beat, then I'll go after him.  If I go after him from the beginning and then a 1a team comes up and takes him, I just wasted a boat load of money to turn him green.

Posted by Arfy on 4/28/2012 2:24:00 PM (view original):
In 1aa I find you almost HAVE to snipe.  If I see a guy in my area that  has 3 sims on him, and he's an iffy 1a player, but a great 1aa player.  I will just throw a phone call on him, just to put him on my list.  I'll then wait until the last moment to see if anyone jumps on him.  If its someone that I can easily beat, then I'll go after him.  If I go after him from the beginning and then a 1a team comes up and takes him, I just wasted a boat load of money to turn him green.

Makes sense.  I don't think it is for me though.  Even worse case scenario.  If I had 3 open scholies at the end and the game filled them, it wouldn't hurt my team as I can drop them next season.  I sometimes recruit that way.  Say I have 12 scholies and need to fill 7 positions badly.  I might use my money for 7 exceptional guys, and 2 good guys leaving the other 3 spots go.  What your describing is no different.  I know Grindi has had me watch his DIAA team at times and when the dust settles from the first few signing cycles he then goes and gets undecided talent that should be playing DIA.  Not many but a few.  I guess that is kind of what you are doing.

Posted by zedicus on 4/28/2012 2:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Arfy on 4/28/2012 2:24:00 PM (view original):
In 1aa I find you almost HAVE to snipe.  If I see a guy in my area that  has 3 sims on him, and he's an iffy 1a player, but a great 1aa player.  I will just throw a phone call on him, just to put him on my list.  I'll then wait until the last moment to see if anyone jumps on him.  If its someone that I can easily beat, then I'll go after him.  If I go after him from the beginning and then a 1a team comes up and takes him, I just wasted a boat load of money to turn him green.

Makes sense.  I don't think it is for me though.  Even worse case scenario.  If I had 3 open scholies at the end and the game filled them, it wouldn't hurt my team as I can drop them next season.  I sometimes recruit that way.  Say I have 12 scholies and need to fill 7 positions badly.  I might use my money for 7 exceptional guys, and 2 good guys leaving the other 3 spots go.  What your describing is no different.  I know Grindi has had me watch his DIAA team at times and when the dust settles from the first few signing cycles he then goes and gets undecided talent that should be playing DIA.  Not many but a few.  I guess that is kind of what you are doing.

Yeah, pretty much.    I used to try what you talk about.  Taking walkons on purpose.  But like Grindi,,  you can find a ton of mediocre undecided players within your 360 for less than $1500 a piece. 

I don't really see a purpose as much in div 2 and 3 to snipe.  Although if you have the cash laying around, why not put it to good use.

I don't do it very often, but just last week during Wilkinson recruiting, I had a full slate of green recruits, but I did not like the crop of OL that I had turned green....They were OK, but not great.  I had a bit of money left over and went after a guy that another coach had already turned green, one cycle before signings started.  I targeted this one particular PLAYER because he fit what I was looking for and I thought that I might have enough money to win the battle.

As it turned out, I lost the battle, but it took many, many cycles.  I settled for the guys I already had green.  Meanwhile, I had someone take a shot at one of my greens...and I had to "fight him off".  So, having a bit of a reserve of cash is beneficial, so that you have options....either go on offense (looking for better recruits), or play defense (if/when someone comes after a recruit you are targeting).  

This kind of activity (battling of any kind) takes money and certainly causes stress to both teams (both have to spend resources).  But if I need a guy and my competitor needs the same guy....why should I just roll over and let the other coach have him?   To me it is a completely valid (not always the best, but completely valid) strategy in order to gain an advantage in the game.

i don't like the 1 cycle before signing. as far as what damauler did okay. plus he was an stl. after i washed my shorts i'd be full speed ahead.
but not the cycle before signing. afterward game on though.

Posted by grindi on 4/28/2012 12:25:00 PM (view original):
This will be controversial because the guys that do it get indignant about it so I'll just state my point of view and leave it at that.  Any personal attacks, name calling or ungentlemanly behavior in general will reported  I don't intend to answer anything because this is how I view it and you won't change it.  There will be people that agree and people that disagree.  So be it.  No need to get personal about it.  You'll never convince me that there isn't enough talent out there to NOT go after guys that are green.  Battle over guys that come up yellow.  But if another coach has a guy green (he shows up red to you), leave him alone.  Especially in the 1 or 2 cycles before signing.

Point number 1.  When a guy is green on the last day of signing and you go after him, you are poaching or sniping whatever you want to call it.  It is totally unnecessary to go after another coaches recruits.  There is PLENTY of talent out there.  I find most of my STLs AFTER signing is well under way.  Since I have published this certain coaches have made sure to check my guys and my brothers' guys that are green and we regularly get the same guys poaching our recruits which leaves us less money to go after the STLs.  So I KNOW for a fact there are better guys still undecided out there than we have or they want .  Most of the times when they are successful, yea they got a good recruit . but we do well enough it doesn't hurt our teams.  That is not true for everyone.
 
Point 2.  What sniping does is to show me that the other coach(s) are not very talented in their own recruiting.  Here is my reasoning on that.  My brother and I NEVER do it and we have very good teams.  Maybe as one coach put it, it is effective for winning an NC but is that because his team got so much better by sniping or because he weakens his opponents by sniping?   For me it is a detriment to the game.  If I have to screw somebody else over to get my enjoyment out of a GAME?  Well to me it just doesn't compute.  Time to do something else.

Point 3.  There is already so much apathy in this game, that screwing with another coach is like putting one more nail in the coffin.  Look at it from his side.  He works his butt off to get the SIMs off,  He invests a bunch of money in the guy.  He is in that goup of teams struggling to make the playoffs.  He finally has a decent crop of recruits and then the teams with the prestige come in late and snatch them out from under him.  He's low on cash and ends up getting SIM players.  How much of that do you think the guy is going to tolerate before leaving?  And I don't blame him when he goes.  Again,  There are NOT that many human teams per World.  There is MORE than enough talent to go around by picking just undecideds and SIMs.  Look at how good some of the SIM players have gotten to be.  It's because humans have overlooked those guys.  The proof is right under our noses yet certain coaches will defend their right to snipe.  Well true you can but should you?  If you consider yourself a top recruiter there should be no need for it.  It would be different IF the Worlds were full but right now the only readon to do it is to screw up somebody else.  Gino and I have a rating system tweaked from yatzrs but at the end of the recruit I see TOP guys in both yatzrs and ours that go undrafted.  Where is the need to snipe?

So in closing.  I just plain don't do it.  My brother doesn't do it.  Jibe doesn't do it.  Even Gino won't unless somebody screws him first.  Yet look at our teams.  They are top competetive teams.  I just think it is wrong.  Knowing that there are a bunch of STLs out there after signing just amazes me that some coaches go after other teams green players.  To me that is just stupid.  I ALWAYS have 2-4 STLs on my teams.  I've seen time and time on here that people rarely even see them.  Do you think that maybe if you'd start looking at undecideds instead of other coaches Green recruits it might help find them?  Of course you could do what people do to my brother and I and just go through all our green ones just before signing and snag one.  That to me is just wrong and pathetic but that has been happening a lot.  I now put money into guys I don't even want, turn them green cheap, just so these unscrupulous coaches at least have to go through some rags to find my good guys.  It is money spent that could be going for STLs but I still have to have some good recruits.

This whole episode is getting interesting so I thought I'd throw in my .02.  This is not about having a recruit getting turned on the signing cycle where you do no have a chance to fight back.  I find this to be underhanded at best.  This is about a recruit who is turned before the signing cycle, which I find to be perfectly fine, though irritating when it happens to any of us.

1.  If all recruits were equal, I would agree with you.  They aren't.  Just because you cash spam recruits early doesn't mean they're yours.  If you believe what you say and you're finding all these great recruits after signings, don't whine, just move on.  The poachers aren't taking those recruits, you're more than welcome to them.  

2.  I don't think poaching is a sign of a poor recruiter.  I consider myself fairly successful and I've done it many times when a recruit I'm targeting is cash spammed by another coach early in the process.  They may be green to them, but I've also put cash into the recruit.  I see no reason to just chalk it up to wasted recruiting effort if I have excess cash and that recruit will improve my team.  It may weaken the other team, but that's secondary to strengthening my own team. 

3.  There is apathy in this game because the engine is terrible right now.  And, again, if you're seeing all these top guys after signings start, go ahead and sign them.  It has been very, very rare that i've seen recruits after signings that were better than my initial targets.  Maybe with the worlds as empty as they are now it's more common, but I find that highly unlikely unless your initial targeting is pretty low. 

If you don't want to keep getting poached, I would suggest that you retaliate.  Especially in D2 and D3, it's easy to destroy another coaches class.  If he keeps poaching, make it painful enough for them to quit doing it or to move on to another team.  Sometimes you have to use force to get your point across.  

BEAUTIFULLY PUT SLID

Reid!

GUESS will rate this guy around top 20 at Safety. I have him ranked 4th in my rankings before factoring in potential...so this is not a guy I can just find anywhere...

Slid you are right.  I intend fully to retaliate.  As a matter of fact I intend to be the best sniper out there.  As for underhanded.  I agree.  But it is legal and some people don't deserve better.  He has sniped his last from me.  Season after season he scouts my guys and trys to get them.  Good luck in the future as I won't have any green you can get.

I don't know what you mean by spam money on guys.  I target certain ones and only go after the higher potential ones.  I've only recently started getting weaker players green in order to make it more expensive for guys like this to target in on my good recruits.  I can get satisfaction by sniping guys like damauler. Heck the engine isn't as much fun anyways and the forum is full trashers.  I'll just be a sniper.