All Forums > Gridiron Dynasty Football > Gridiron Dynasty > This is something that really needs to be explain
5/20/2012 9:12 PM (edited)
EXPLAINED:

My understanding of aggressiveness/conservative settings is that all it effects is:

1) How far back the DBs/LBs/Safties play off the line.

Meaning

Aggressive = close to the line

Conservative = further back from the line

2) Aggressiveness settings effect how often you attempt to blitz, jump a route or strip a ball

Meaning

The sim sends an extra LB to the QB or tries to make an interception or force a fumble. (If your aggressiveness settings are high)

But it also leaves the possibility of the opponent making a big play because you are playing aggressive.

---

That is just what I've read from multiple dev chats with JConte. Now what left me wondering is, how exactly do you counter a very conservative or very aggressive offense?

Meaning

A team that exclusively runs up the middle, or passes short middle/sideline/flats.

or

a team that passes deep or runs outside (which very few teams do)

--

I played against a very conservative offense last night, This team only runs/passes out of one formation, so my conservative setting was the same for passing and running plays.

I held him to 3.4 yards per rush (and his team is superior without question)

That was 1.7 yards below his yearly average

However he ended up passing all over me, 71.1% completion rate and I didn't get to the QB AT ALL, no sacks and no scrambles.

I played very conservative defense at all times, the reason I did that is I was reading a thread where MrFortune3 gives this advice:

THREAD

I ignored the other tards in this thread and just took MrFortune's advice... There's one coach with 5 seasons experience telling Fortune he's wrong and some other tard agreeing with him.

I stopped the run effectively, but opened myself up for getting passed all over, with zero QB pressure.

So what the hell do you do against a conservative offense?

I just spelled aggressiveness 25 times, so I deserve an answer
5/20/2012 10:22 PM
just as a point of reference, jconte explained that a conservative offense made it more likely to throw to a rb/te who was staying in to block, while a more aggressive offense made it more likely to throw to a wr while the the rb/te was part of the route.  cheers!
5/20/2012 11:16 PM
I'm pretty sure that it's the "tendency" setting that determines how far you play off the line. Always Run stacks the box, and your defense loosens up back to Always Pass, which is a prevent D.
5/21/2012 8:05 AM
there are more than just conservative and aggressive settings that need to be accounted for.
5/21/2012 11:22 AM
Just to clarify in the current engine, "how far off the line" is really just simulated by different adjustments to the various checks.  There are not actual positioning of players in the engine, so the settings just affect the chances which means there really isn't a correlation of where players are playing other than it is easier to think of in those terms versus saying "adjust chance of defending a long pass by 0.12".  Most of the checks are about where a player is likely to be covering on each play, so rather than working with individual player positioning throughout a play, we are looking at a player's influence.  So it could be a player has 50% influence in one area of the field and 20% influence in another and so on.  Why am I going on about this?  The settings don't move players around so much as they adjust the players' influence numbers.

So what do the settings mean:
Offense - Style: More Conservative means more likely to have shorter passes and runs between the tackles.  More Aggressive means more likely to have deeper passes and outside runs.  Note: it doesn't mean that's the only type of pass you will have, but you will be more likely to target shorter or deeper.

Defense - Tendency: If you want to think of it in terms of what players are doing, it would most closely be related to what LBs are doing, playing closer to the line or dropping back for coverage.  It's really just an adjustment to overall success against passing and rushing.

Defense - Style: This mostly affects pass coverage.  More Conservative means playing deeper, shifting players' influences down the field more.  More Aggressive means playing closer to the line in coverage and blitzing more.  It might help to think about a Prevent Defense where players are playing very deep - that would be a Very Very Conservative defense.

Part of the problem (other than the whole randomness issue) is that many decision are tied together.  For instance, Conservative rushing and passing are tied to the same setting.  What if you want to run wide more and pass short?  You can't really do that.  Another problem is the terminology - I think once you understand what Aggressive means versus Conservative, you kind of get it, but it still confuses people.

For defensive pass coverage, if you want to cover deeper passing, go with more Conservative settings.  If you want to cover shorter passing, go with more Aggressive settings.  Yes, that's the opposite of what the settings are for offense.
5/21/2012 12:02 PM
So Norbert for example a Pass/Aggressive setting would be more effective versus a team who throws alot of short passes i.e offensive setting Heavy Pass/conservative while a Always Pass/conservative setting would be more effective versus a team that passes mainly and is set to Heavy Pass/Aggressive offensive setting?

Not to beat a dead horse but in Always Pass the LB's are far off the line of scrimmage and in Always Run they are right on the LOS. For all setting in between they are farther off the line of scrimmage than Always Run but closer than Always pass with distance varying by setting i.e Always Run on the LOS, Heavy run 2 yds off LOS, Run 4 yards off LOS, Balanced 6 yards off LOS, Pass 8 yards off LOS, Heavy Pass 10 yards off LOS, Always Pass 15 yards off LOS?

I know the numbers I am using may not be correct but just wondering if it is approximate?    
5/21/2012 12:22 PM
Posted by sammyboy4022 on 5/21/2012 12:02:00 PM (view original):
So Norbert for example a Pass/Aggressive setting would be more effective versus a team who throws alot of short passes i.e offensive setting Heavy Pass/conservative while a Always Pass/conservative setting would be more effective versus a team that passes mainly and is set to Heavy Pass/Aggressive offensive setting?

Not to beat a dead horse but in Always Pass the LB's are far off the line of scrimmage and in Always Run they are right on the LOS. For all setting in between they are farther off the line of scrimmage than Always Run but closer than Always pass with distance varying by setting i.e Always Run on the LOS, Heavy run 2 yds off LOS, Run 4 yards off LOS, Balanced 6 yards off LOS, Pass 8 yards off LOS, Heavy Pass 10 yards off LOS, Always Pass 15 yards off LOS?

I know the numbers I am using may not be correct but just wondering if it is approximate?    
Correct on the first example.

On the second example, there really isn't a "off the LOS" setting.  Pass means better chance against the pass and Run means better chance against the run.  In effect, you could say it simulates being off the LOS or closer to it, but in reality it is just a matter of 0.4 versus 0.6 and such.  So Heavy Pass would have the best chance against passing and Heavy Run the best chance against rushing, but it doesn't limit the results of the play based on those settings, so for instance it's not impossible to get a tackle for a loss when you have a Heavy Pass setting. It's less likely you get a tackle for a loss, but not impossible. 

It's really easier to just think of the Tendency setting as Pass vs Run and not try to think of it as player positioning at all.  Conversely, the Aggressiveness setting is easiest to think of in terms of where do you want the most cover.  Conservative is deeper down the field and Aggressive is closer to the LOS.

Part of the engine update is going to be to review these settings and determine how to make them a little more deterministic in determining play results.
5/21/2012 1:47 PM
5/21/2012 3:49 PM
Thanks Norbert I appreciate you taking the time to explain that in detail. I really appreciate the approach you are taking to fix the game!  
5/21/2012 4:51 PM
Thanks! It is a wonder I have ever won a game due to my incredible ignorance regarding these settings. I think I've been doing it backwards!
5/21/2012 5:09 PM
Thank you Norbert
5/21/2012 5:16 PM
Posted by norbert on 5/21/2012 11:22:00 AM (view original):
Just to clarify in the current engine, "how far off the line" is really just simulated by different adjustments to the various checks.  There are not actual positioning of players in the engine, so the settings just affect the chances which means there really isn't a correlation of where players are playing other than it is easier to think of in those terms versus saying "adjust chance of defending a long pass by 0.12".  Most of the checks are about where a player is likely to be covering on each play, so rather than working with individual player positioning throughout a play, we are looking at a player's influence.  So it could be a player has 50% influence in one area of the field and 20% influence in another and so on.  Why am I going on about this?  The settings don't move players around so much as they adjust the players' influence numbers.

So what do the settings mean:
Offense - Style: More Conservative means more likely to have shorter passes and runs between the tackles.  More Aggressive means more likely to have deeper passes and outside runs.  Note: it doesn't mean that's the only type of pass you will have, but you will be more likely to target shorter or deeper.

Defense - Tendency: If you want to think of it in terms of what players are doing, it would most closely be related to what LBs are doing, playing closer to the line or dropping back for coverage.  It's really just an adjustment to overall success against passing and rushing.

Defense - Style: This mostly affects pass coverage.  More Conservative means playing deeper, shifting players' influences down the field more.  More Aggressive means playing closer to the line in coverage and blitzing more.  It might help to think about a Prevent Defense where players are playing very deep - that would be a Very Very Conservative defense.

Part of the problem (other than the whole randomness issue) is that many decision are tied together.  For instance, Conservative rushing and passing are tied to the same setting.  What if you want to run wide more and pass short?  You can't really do that.  Another problem is the terminology - I think once you understand what Aggressive means versus Conservative, you kind of get it, but it still confuses people.

For defensive pass coverage, if you want to cover deeper passing, go with more Conservative settings.  If you want to cover shorter passing, go with more Aggressive settings.  Yes, that's the opposite of what the settings are for offense.
So if we're talking about run defense, what style would we want to do in terms of an aggressive/conservative running style?
5/21/2012 6:28 PM
I think this is making my head hurt.
5/21/2012 6:31 PM
Dude, at this point he has given you enough. Now try it out and see what happens. It's not rocket surgery.
5/21/2012 6:32 PM
Posted by lefantom13 on 5/21/2012 4:51:00 PM (view original):
Thanks! It is a wonder I have ever won a game due to my incredible ignorance regarding these settings. I think I've been doing it backwards!
I think I have been also.  geeeez, when I've face those heavy pass teams I think I was way off the mark.
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All Forums > Gridiron Dynasty Football > Gridiron Dynasty > This is something that really needs to be explain

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