All Forums > Hardball Dynasty Baseball > Suggestions > Real-time FA bidding
10/17/2012 1:52 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/16/2012 9:38:00 PM (view original):
How, exactly, is me sitting here, bidding 10k more over and over again until I'm high bid better for owners who check in at 7 AM before they go to work and again at 7 PM when they come home?
How you get your bid to where you get it doesn't matter to 7 AM / 7 PM guy.  (Funny that you're trying prove your point with an example the would require a lot of time. Everyone doesn't have the time you do 24/7/365 to play this game.)

Let's say you pass him.  He gets an email or text (if he wants) that tells he was outbid.  He can then increase his bid at any time in the next 24-48 hours (different issue). No need to check in every 4 hours to see if he's still #1.  And he'll now as soon as he bids if he's still in the race or he's out.

Saving a busy guy with a life outside of HBD some time. More likely he'll stick with the game.



10/17/2012 1:56 AM
Posted by usfbully on 10/16/2012 9:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tufft on 10/16/2012 9:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by usfbully on 10/16/2012 9:26:00 PM (view original):
The people have spoken. Dumb idea.
Well thought out response. Good counter points.  Bummer that eBay won't work or catch on. Seemed like such a good idea, too.
McDonalds makes millions from serving **** on a bun, In N Out makes millions serving quality. There is more than one way to have a successful product. The Ebay system would be retarded in this game.
So you think more people will stick with HBD with an FA system that requires logging in every 4 hours, many times a day, for many days in a row -

Than if the FA system could be changed to allow for more strategy and less time clicking being on the site?

Why do you think that?

10/17/2012 2:05 AM
tecwrg -

I apologize for all specific claims about how you play HBD.  I was making you a straw man for all the people who defend the current game for what is, IMO, their short sighed & selfish goals. Most of what you posted was crap claims.  I should have stuck to those points  And been more clear I was thinking of a plural 'you'.  I was out of line
10/17/2012 2:13 AM
tecwrg -

Since you at least seem to be trying to make a point, however off base.

There are two separate issues in this thread.  Maybe should have been presented that way.

(1) Real time bidding.  (2) eBay model of determining the winner.

Neither depends on the other. 

(1) The current system has a strategy.  So does maxing a max bid (no matter if that's you're real bid or if your bid is 2nd high bid plus min mid amount.)

I don't see much more or less strategy in either model.  They both have strategies.  A lot similar, a few different.

What I do see is the current system primarily rewards time on the site. And the game taking too much time to play has been given again & again as a reason people leave.

Do you agree or disagree that, all else being equal or pretty close to equal in terms of strategy, HBD should take as much time as possbile to play & compete or as little time as possible to play & compete?

I'll put (2) in a different post.
10/17/2012 2:32 AM
(2) eBay model of determining the winner.

tecwrg - OK, YOU play in great worlds with stable GMs who know the game. Good on you.  You've put in your time & you deserve that.

Do you understand that every world is not full of GMs like that.  That some worlds have newer GMs who will not now and maybe ever reach your personal high standards?

Do you understand that in those worlds, it seems pretty common or a new GM, or a someone whose just a dick, to pay a FA way too much for too many years.  Sometimes more than one FA.  And then that GM realizes what they've done, they either quit the game or drop that team & pick up another.  Leaving a team that's hard to get another GM to take over.

Do you think abandoned team with highly over paid players are good for the overall health of HBD?  Should there be as many of them as possible, or should there be as few of them as possible?

If I was pulling the eBay model out of my *** & saying, trust me, I'd get the hard resistance.

But eBay has worked for years. In large part because of the way they run the auctions.  They have outlasted hundreds of other auction sites that tried different models.

There's a lot of research on why that models works the best, all round, for everybody involved. The founders of eBay didn't make it up.

One of the reasons it works is it prevents one idiot from hurting themselves and from that one idiot from setting the market price or appearing to be a market. So overall, auction after auction, you get a more active & more fair market for everyone.

And, it take less time to take part in an eBay style auction than it does to take part in an HBD FA auction.  Which goes back to the question in my last post.  Do you thing it's good for HBD if the game takes as many hours as possible to play & compete, or would it be better if the game had better or similar strategy and could be played in a competitive way with less of a time commitment?

10/17/2012 8:10 AM
This, in fact, is a terrible idea.  Why should the free agent market be set to the minimum possible dollar amount for each and every free agent?  It will be either that or someone fixing the market as damag suggested on page 1. 
tufft if you don't see that no player would ever get "overpaid" with your "fix" and don't see that that is a bad thing, then there really is no use in anyone going back and forth with you over this.
10/17/2012 8:11 AM
Posted by tufft on 10/17/2012 1:52:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/16/2012 9:38:00 PM (view original):
How, exactly, is me sitting here, bidding 10k more over and over again until I'm high bid better for owners who check in at 7 AM before they go to work and again at 7 PM when they come home?
How you get your bid to where you get it doesn't matter to 7 AM / 7 PM guy.  (Funny that you're trying prove your point with an example the would require a lot of time. Everyone doesn't have the time you do 24/7/365 to play this game.)

Let's say you pass him.  He gets an email or text (if he wants) that tells he was outbid.  He can then increase his bid at any time in the next 24-48 hours (different issue). No need to check in every 4 hours to see if he's still #1.  And he'll now as soon as he bids if he's still in the race or he's out.

Saving a busy guy with a life outside of HBD some time. More likely he'll stick with the game.



So when do the players sign?   Again, be brief.
10/17/2012 8:15 AM
If I could "fix" FA, I'd allow everyone two bids.   You make your first, you're top bid or you're not.    If not, you can make one more.   If you are, you can make one more if someone exceeds your bid.  

No need to check in every cycle every day.   Determine a player's worth and make an offer.   Don't sit around and bid 10k more, time and time again, until you figure out the top bid.

FWIW, I'd do the same thing with IFA and coaches(or completely overhaul coach hiring but that's another story).
10/17/2012 8:56 AM
First of all, I thought of a couple of other exploits that would make real time bidding horrible.

I could collude with another owner.  Make sure he gets any player he wants by cockblocking any other bidders, finding out the real price, and letting my client know.

Or I could collude with myself.  Get two teams in one world, use my dummy team to fix the price on players, then buy them with my real team.  No telltale sketchy trades or waiver dumps.


10/17/2012 9:03 AM
Second, I kind of agree with Mike's post above.  The soccer sim is a very rudimentary version of this.  At least in this sim, you can figure out that a player signs when his top bid has not been exceeded after X number of cycles.

In the soccer sim, there appears to be no trigger factor as to when or why a player signs.  You can lay down huge money, be the #1 for days, but get outbid in one cycle and have no counter opportunity.  I even accused them of programming each player to sign at a random time as long as there is an offer present, just to present the appearance of competition and owner control, when there actually is none.  Point being, in that sim I learned to simply decide what I wanted to pay, table it, and let it ride.



10/17/2012 1:14 PM (edited)
Posted by tufft on 10/17/2012 2:13:00 AM (view original):
tecwrg -

Since you at least seem to be trying to make a point, however off base.

There are two separate issues in this thread.  Maybe should have been presented that way.

(1) Real time bidding.  (2) eBay model of determining the winner.

Neither depends on the other. 

(1) The current system has a strategy.  So does maxing a max bid (no matter if that's you're real bid or if your bid is 2nd high bid plus min mid amount.)

I don't see much more or less strategy in either model.  They both have strategies.  A lot similar, a few different.

What I do see is the current system primarily rewards time on the site. And the game taking too much time to play has been given again & again as a reason people leave.

Do you agree or disagree that, all else being equal or pretty close to equal in terms of strategy, HBD should take as much time as possbile to play & compete or as little time as possible to play & compete?

I'll put (2) in a different post.
Your real time bidding proposal doesn't fix anything.  If somebody is available only once or twice a day, real time bidding doesn't help them.  Sure, when they do check in at 7am in the morning, they can put in their multiple bids with immediate feedback until they are number one, but that doesn't stop another owner coming in 10 minutes after they leave for the day and doing the exact same thing.  The guy who has the luxury of being able to check in more frequently is still going to have the advantage in FA bidding whether it's through real-time bidding (i.e. immediate notification of where you stand), or under the current system (notification every half-cycle).

I'll agree that with strategy and everything else being equal, finding a solution in which there is no distinct advantage for the people who appear to be here 24x7 over the people who can check in only once or twice a day, would be preferable.

Real-time bidding doesn't do that.  In fact, it gives the 24x7 people even more of an advantage than the current system in that they don't have to wait every four hours to find out where they stand.
10/17/2012 9:26 AM
I never understand the people who insist that their idea is good when every response is "dumb idea".    Maybe they see something the rest don't.  But I'll go with they don't see what everyone else does.

If I have 12 hours to increase bids, in small increments to every FA I like, before the other guy checks back in, I've got a huge advantage.
10/17/2012 9:26 AM
Posted by tufft on 10/17/2012 2:32:00 AM (view original):
(2) eBay model of determining the winner.

tecwrg - OK, YOU play in great worlds with stable GMs who know the game. Good on you.  You've put in your time & you deserve that.

Do you understand that every world is not full of GMs like that.  That some worlds have newer GMs who will not now and maybe ever reach your personal high standards?

Do you understand that in those worlds, it seems pretty common or a new GM, or a someone whose just a dick, to pay a FA way too much for too many years.  Sometimes more than one FA.  And then that GM realizes what they've done, they either quit the game or drop that team & pick up another.  Leaving a team that's hard to get another GM to take over.

Do you think abandoned team with highly over paid players are good for the overall health of HBD?  Should there be as many of them as possible, or should there be as few of them as possible?

If I was pulling the eBay model out of my *** & saying, trust me, I'd get the hard resistance.

But eBay has worked for years. In large part because of the way they run the auctions.  They have outlasted hundreds of other auction sites that tried different models.

There's a lot of research on why that models works the best, all round, for everybody involved. The founders of eBay didn't make it up.

One of the reasons it works is it prevents one idiot from hurting themselves and from that one idiot from setting the market price or appearing to be a market. So overall, auction after auction, you get a more active & more fair market for everyone.

And, it take less time to take part in an eBay style auction than it does to take part in an HBD FA auction.  Which goes back to the question in my last post.  Do you thing it's good for HBD if the game takes as many hours as possible to play & compete, or would it be better if the game had better or similar strategy and could be played in a competitive way with less of a time commitment?

I'm not saying that the eBay model doesn't work.  Of course it does.  It works great,  For eBay.

HBD is not eBay, nor is it intended to be.  FA bidding in HBD is intended to model real life, at least in the best way that it can within the confines of a programmed computer simulation.  Is it perfect?  No.  As I stated in my previous response, the advantage is tilted towards the people who can more time and opportunity to stay on top of their bids.

Insisting that the eBay model of proxy bidding would somehow make HBD FA bidding better is ludicrous.  It makes no sense to me how a system in which I can make a bid of, for example,  $20m on a player, and end up signing him for $7.1m, makes the game better.  That REMOVES strategy, not improves strategy.  It takes away risk.  Without risk, there is little to no strategy.
10/17/2012 9:33 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/17/2012 8:15:00 AM (view original):
If I could "fix" FA, I'd allow everyone two bids.   You make your first, you're top bid or you're not.    If not, you can make one more.   If you are, you can make one more if someone exceeds your bid.  

No need to check in every cycle every day.   Determine a player's worth and make an offer.   Don't sit around and bid 10k more, time and time again, until you figure out the top bid.

FWIW, I'd do the same thing with IFA and coaches(or completely overhaul coach hiring but that's another story).
That is pretty much how our limited Free Agent market in For Life works, except for the 2nd bid part. 
We open it up to bidding for players that weren't resigned by their teams on the last day of Free Agency and everyone gets one shot at the winning bid.  I'm certain we've had some players get overpaid (based on what the next highest bid was, not what they are "worth") since we've been doing it that way.
I would definitely be in favor of WIS making that change for FA and IFA bidding.  I might up it to three total bids, as it seems reasonable that in MLB a team would go back and forth with a player a few times; a team incrementally upping their bid 8 times doesn't seem very likely.
10/17/2012 1:05 PM
>> So when do the players sign?   Again, be brief. <<

After 36 hours with the same top bidder.  Maybe it's 24 hours.  Maybe 48.

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