All Forums > Hardball Dynasty Baseball > Suggestions > Real-time FA bidding
10/25/2012 3:09 PM
Posted by kcden on 10/25/2012 3:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/25/2012 11:49:00 AM (view original):
I think that's where he's getting confused.  No one cares what Jimmy Fakeplayer makes.    But everyone should care what Owner 1-31 will pay him.   That's what makes the game.    Good for me if you overpay.
Is he incapable of reading, or incapable of aknowledging?
I'm pretty sure he can read.   I don't think he can quite fathom anyone not agreeing with him and his brilliant idea.
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10/25/2012 3:26 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/25/2012 3:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kcden on 10/25/2012 3:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/25/2012 11:49:00 AM (view original):
I think that's where he's getting confused.  No one cares what Jimmy Fakeplayer makes.    But everyone should care what Owner 1-31 will pay him.   That's what makes the game.    Good for me if you overpay.
Is he incapable of reading, or incapable of aknowledging?
I'm pretty sure he can read.   I don't think he can quite fathom anyone not agreeing with him and his brilliant idea.
Mike Post -

(1) Make up a point nobody is making. In this case, that I think any of these ideas are brilliant or care if anyone is agreeing with me.

(2) Argue against that made up point.

(3) Mike makes Mike feel smart.


10/25/2012 4:24 PM
Explain.  But be brief.

My point:   You think you've come up with a brilliant idea.  No one agrees.  I've pointed that out.

So, if you could, explain what I made up.
10/25/2012 4:43 PM
Posted by tufft on 10/25/2012 2:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 10/25/2012 7:57:00 AM (view original):
You mean I didn't win?  He told me that I won.  WTF?
Yes, you won. Congratulations. Seems clear that the vocal 1% of HBD players can''t get their heads around a change to the FA bidding process.

No need to repeat what my initial goals were. Mission accomplished for me. I didn't set out to have the vote got 25-0 against, but I didn't set out to have it anyone love any of the ideas, either. Exactly the same impact to HBD in either case. None.

The HUGE bonus to me in all of this was learning how deeply so many people identify with the fake players. There are a lot of reasons to like nothing about any idea I've floated. More than have been posted here. Most of the "here's why it's a bad idea" examples center on a wish for the fake players to make the most fake money. No thought to how that impacts the real humans who play and maybe leave HBD.  None. Risk fake Prince Fielder making fewer fake dollars every fake season - that's a problem.  How that's been proven to impact the real people - no interest.

Many people here are playing way deeper pretend than I ever thought.

Isn't this the point when you're supposed to yell out "I'm TAKING MY BALL AND GOING HOME!!!"?

The more you post, the more childish you look.  You offered a suggestion that has been unanimously dismissed.  You react by acting like a child.

You've certainly established your legacy here.

10/25/2012 5:22 PM
Posted by tufft on 10/25/2012 3:23:00 PM (view original):
>> You realize this is a strategy baseball simulation right?  <<

Yes, it's a simulation.  Not an exact copy of realworld MLB. For example, every HBD team gets the same amount of $$ every season. Max 5 yr contact. Just two of several differences. Unless the people who play HBD are going to start paying out real money, or making real money, based on their decisions, there will always be some things that won't work exactly the same way.

>> If someone overpays for a guy they should have to deal with that poor decision.  <<

Perhaps in some dream world that maybe you wished you lived in, yes, they should.  But in this real world, they don't.  Bad decisions are often paid for by the other 31 real humans in the world. 

>> Just like if I forget to protect a Rule 5 guy I have to deal with that decision. <<

Excellent example. Maybe the best one yet to back up my main points.  Because real people were leaving very good prospects unprotected, WIS added logic so that top prospects are added to the 40 man automatically.  Is that how it works in MLB? Does Baseball God add the best prospects to ever team's 40 man? Because, as you pointed out, HBD is a simulation, some details can and maybe should work differently than the real thing. You might think it would be better if new GMs could leave top prospects unprotected so others can scoop them up. That's your opinion. I might agree with you. But what you can't argue is HBD already does some things differently than MLB for the sake of improving overall game play and saving the dummies & newbies from themselves.

>> The flaw in your suggestion is that it takes most of the strategy out of the bidding process. ..... <<

And then you give an example that demonstrates exactly why there is not less strategy.  You clearly demonstrate different strategies that would come into play.

Why are you identifying with the loser? Put yourself in the position of the person who bid $100M and go the player for $75M. Now you have $25M to do things with.  The more things you can do, the more options you have, the more strategy there is in the game, not less.

>> Please tell me you understand how this would dumb down the game. The more decisions you take out of the game the less interesting it becomes to people who enjoy the game.  <<

Did I just show you how the exact change you're proposing does not dumb down the game?  It didn't take a single decision away from you.  If anything, it opens up the chance for you to make more decisions. Yes, it's different strategies. If your primary strategy is "take advantage of people who don't understand the game very well", you personally might not like the new strategies. But that doesn't mean there are less of them or they are dumbed down.

>> People who are going to make bad moves and leave aren't the people you want to keep anyway.  They will always find a reason to leave. <<

Of course some people are going to leave. In any strategy game, people are gong to make better & worse decisions.  Probably the people who make more good decisions will stick around longer than the people who make more bad decisions. That does not mean the HBD can't try to prevent people from making bad decisions and somewhat limit the impact of bad decsions by slightly modifying MLB rules to allow for the reality the HBD is not real money and there is no real impact to making a bad decision. HBD doesn't have to set newbies up to make bad decisions.

>> Also the devs aren't getting rid of the cycles unless they build HBD2.  Asking for them to do it is a waste of words. <<

Agreed. I've covered this. Nice to end on a point of agreement, right?

Yikes.  Let me see if I can respond without taking up so much space.

- People lose good players in the Rule 5 all the time.  Only the absolute studs get put on automatically. 
- If your suggestion was that the devs come up with a way to make absolutely horrible contracts (guy is too old or too bad to get that much money) get turned down I would actually support that.  I do mean the player would have to be pretty bad though.
- You admit your suggestion bails out overbidding.  That would be the definition of dumbing down the game.
- I take the side of the 31 "losers" because they didn't overbid.     
- HBD like many things requires mistakes to learn.  If people aren't willing to make mistakes I suggest cable television as a hobby rather than HBD.
- I am glad we agree this idea will never happen.
10/25/2012 6:09 PM
There's an obvious cultural divide here.  To the point that tufft says "Many people here are playing pretend way deeper than I thought."

Yes.  That's the point.

To use the Dave D. example, most people who come to this game have come because it's the most extreme, most complex game on the WIS site.  I came here because I got bored with the others, and was finally ready to take on the complexity.  That's the point.  We want to be Dave D. and decide to take the chance that the fat first baseman either hits 100 home runs, or his contract becomes an albatross.

Most of us started when younger with games like APBA baseball or Stratomatic.  Other kids thought we were nuts, probably.  There's only a small number of us who would even think of playing this.  That's the point.

tufft is arguing that simplifiying certain parts of the game would help to retain casual users.  Well, when you cater to casual users sometimes you risk alienating core users.  Simplifying things, taking risk out of things, makes the game less complex and less challenging to those who demand the challenge.

I have not for one second wished HBD were less complex.  I would even welcome more.  I LOVE the fact that HBD runs on an explicit schedule where you are expected to log on or get left behind.  I've played too many regular sim games with too many other owners who hold up leagues through non-participation.  Many hockey sim users, where I come from, have quit the hockey sim explicitly stating that WIS will not get one more cent from them till they launch a long-promised Hockey Dynasty.  The users demand more complexity and more challenge.

They built this game to be the most complex thing on the site.  The descriptions, FAQs, rules of HBD explain over and over again the demands that will be expected of players.  They even suggest you find experienced players to show you the ropes.

I expect nothing less of HBD.  If it were less, I'd be less interested, and I'd drop my team.


10/25/2012 8:45 PM
Well said.
10/25/2012 11:11 PM
damag - Poetic & heartfelt post. Not trying to argue with you or change your mind. You're psyched to be playing HBD, which is good for all of us.

You've finished 0 HBD seasons. It doesn't mean you shouldn't have an option, but since you've been through 1 FA (and every other) process, might you agree that you'll learn more as you go through things a few times? And maybe your opinions will change?

It would be interesting to know what you'll think in 10-15 HBD seasons. There's a chance with experience, you're opinions about HBD might change, right?  If I had to bet, it would be you won't make it that long. Nothing personal. Just seems most people don't last that long.

Where I am now, that I wasn't 2 years ago is the way HBD is marketed & played, there aren't enough people on earth to make it profitable enough for Fox to keep it going. Maybe they'll fold worlds. Maybe figure way for people to keep their teams and move them to new worlds. Maybe come up with bots or hire $5/hr baseball fans in 3rd world countries to maintain a bunch of teams in OK shape in the hope a person buys the team next season. Maybe there's another way, but something is going to have to change.

If some things don't change, we're all going away.

It's great you want to be Dave.  Maybe roll the dice, take a big risk, and go for it.  All I've tried to point out is that has a real cost to HBD. It seems everyone believes, or wants to believe that's not true. Maybe they're right. Maybe nobody has left a bad contract behind. Maybe teams with bad contracts are just as easy to fill and retain people.

Setting the winning bid price to "2nd Place +" instead of "High Bid" is one of about 6 ideas I've tossed out.  It's the one almost everyone has obsessed on, so it's the one I've replied to the most often. In isolation, it fixes or helps or hurts almost nothing. If they had done it that way when HBD started, nobody would be complaining about it now. It's as good of a way as any to run the auction. All models have pros & cons. I've pointed some of them out. People are jumping up & down over the cons and pretending the pros aren't there or not believing they are there. (None of these are my original ideas. All taken from others & real-world tested.)

If you last a few years, report back the first time your job gets busy, or you're on a family vacation, or it's finals week, and that lines up with FA bidding, coach hiring, amature draft. See how psyched you are then. See if you still think it's a good idea HBD works exactly the way it does. Or if maybe you might like a game with a lot of strategy that could be played in a way you could compete by spending less time or more flexible time.
10/25/2012 11:41 PM
>> People lose good players in the Rule 5 all the time.  Only the absolute studs get put on automatically.  <<

You're pulling a Mike. You based your point on Rule 5 working in HBD as it does in MLB. That's not true. WIS has modified the Rule 5 system for what they see as the overall good. You're reply is an attempt to change the topic. Be a man. Admit you were wrong. Not asking you to agree with anything I've said, but when you put forward you disagree for Reason X and it's proven Reason X isn't true, unless you're running for president that's when you apologize and either try to come up with another reason to defend your opinions or admit your options are based on lies or things you misunderstood.

>> You admit your suggestion bails out overbidding.  That would be the definition of dumbing down the game. <<

eBay did not dumb down bidding and it works that way. Look, there are pros & cons. But you & everyone else saying the eBay winning bid model is "dumb down" does not make it true. It's different. It changes the strategy & then adds opportunities for new strategies. Not saying you can't like Top Bid is the winning price, but that does not make it more strategic. You can say "Yes It Does" all you want. If you don't see it, you're not trying very hard. I'm not say either is better, so you can stop arguing against that if you like.

>> I take the side of the 31 "losers" because they didn't overbid.     <<

That's a Mike JR response. You presented one of countess scenarios and tried to make it sound like that's the only way it will happen every time and it's all bad.  There are countless other scenarios you could have presented that demonstrated benefits and countless that are neutral. I presented one that was positive to you. You pulled a Mike by ignoring that and pulling out something that has nothing to do with the point you were trying to make.

>> HBD like many things requires mistakes to learn.  If people aren't willing to make mistakes I suggest cable television as a hobby rather than HBD. <<

And that seems to be happening at a rate of about 100 people a month. You seem to be implying you're cool with that. I believe that trend could be reversed. Put forward some ideas that would help retain baseball nuts who can't work HBD exactly how it's played now into their lives. I'd rather they stay. You'd rather they go. We disagree.  I think we need them to maintain the game. Maybe you don't.

---
Thanks for tossing some ideas back. I'm getting a lot of benefit that has nothing to do with these posts. I appreciate your help. I'm harshing on you to try to wake you up & maybe get you to think through it more. Because I'd like to know if you have any other reasons to defend the current FA system.
10/25/2012 11:54 PM
It seems very clear consensus has been reached. Let's see if I can summarize -

The current HBD FA bidding system could not possibly be improved upon in any way. There is just no way it could take less time or more flexible time, have more strategy, be more fun, or in any way be better than the perfection it is right now.

We all good?
10/26/2012 6:44 AM

No.  But real-time, eBay-style bidding is not the answer.

Understand?

10/26/2012 7:56 AM
Posted by tufft on 10/25/2012 11:54:00 PM (view original):
It seems very clear consensus has been reached. Let's see if I can summarize -

The current HBD FA bidding system could not possibly be improved upon in any way. There is just no way it could take less time or more flexible time, have more strategy, be more fun, or in any way be better than the perfection it is right now.

We all good?
Suggestions on how to improve the game are always welcome.

Not all suggestions are going to be good ones.

Yours was not.  Not a single person (other than you) thought it was.  Just about everybody who responded commented with the same theme: it doesn't solve the problem that you're trying to solve, and it removes strategy from the FA process.

Your refusal to accept that doesn't make you right.  Telling everybody else that they are wrong doesn't make you right.  Constantly insisting that you are right doesn't make you right.

Maybe your next idea will be a good one.

We all good?
10/26/2012 8:15 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/25/2012 4:24:00 PM (view original):
Explain.  But be brief.

My point:   You think you've come up with a brilliant idea.  No one agrees.  I've pointed that out.

So, if you could, explain what I made up.
I'm also waiting for what part of this " You think you've come up with a brilliant idea.  No one agrees.  I've pointed that out" is made up.
10/26/2012 9:41 AM

I think it's great that you think about the game enough to try and make things better, but I think you (tufft) are looking at this from only one perspective and that is the owner saving money to do more things. What I think you are missing is that there are people, who bid high for players they aren't going to sign, just to make the price of the FA go up so that you pay more. Real time bidding, if I understand it correctly, would mean you would always pay $1 more, or some other set amount, than the 2nd highest bid. I want you concerned that you might not have the highest bid. I want you to pay 1-3 M more than my bid. That is part of the strategy. That is why WIS needs to not make available owners payroll budget to other owners.

As far as the concerns about people leaving the game etc...  I would argue that it has more to do with time efficiency by WIS than any other factor. I'm not saying there aren't other important factors, but there is a lot of down time i.e. spring training, waiting during the playoffs when you are not in the playoffs vs. less time for important things like budgeting or ranking draft prospects. If you miss something important it can screw you up for a long time.

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