All Forums > General Discussion > Non-Sports > Socialism Experiment
3/5/2013 6:04 PM
Posted by examinerebb on 3/5/2013 5:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 3/5/2013 5:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by examinerebb on 3/5/2013 5:42:00 PM (view original):
All according to the internet, so there's that:

Agency debt went from $44 billion in 1970 to $6.5 trillion in 2006 to $7.5 trillion in 2010 (I can't find 2011 or 2012 numbers, but I can't imagine the FHA and the like have shored up their books).  None of that is counted in the "official" national deficit or debt calculations, according to the Federal Reserve.

Just out of curiosity, because you haven't specifically addressed it, do you believe we, as a nation, are incapable of getting to the point where we can no longer afford the payments on the national debt?
I doubt it. We pay $200 billion a year in interest on $14 trillion in debt.

Hmm, I'd be interested in seeing more on the agency debt. I can't imagine we have another $7.5 trillion+ out there that isn't counted in the $14 trillion over all debt amount.

I know that the treasury was buying agency bonds through the QE process.  I honestly don't know if the agency bonds the treasury purchased are counted in the official calculation or not.  I can only find one article, at a cursory glance, that seems to infer that it isn't.  It's also fairly clear that there is an agenda behind said article, so take that for what it's worth.

Either way, I believe that the deficit/debt is worse than we all are led to believe that it is.

If the treasury was doing it, it counts in the official deficit numbers. Maybe it was the fed buying the agency bonds? They are holding a ton in order to keep interest rates down.
3/5/2013 6:27 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 3/5/2013 6:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 3/5/2013 5:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 3/5/2013 5:40:00 PM (view original):
See?  The government (Congress + the POTUS) are part of the problem, and unfortunately also control many of the means to a solution.  Ask the average American how good a job Congress is doing with the economy and you'll likely get a negative response.

THAT leads to less confidence in their ability to fix the economy.  THAT leads to more uncertainty for consumers.  THAT leads to less big ticket spending.  THAT leads to a slower economy and fewer jobs.  And with the slower economy and fewer jobs, THAT leads to even less confidence in Congress/POTUS.  And so on and so on. 

Until they show economic leadership and a cohesive, intelligent, feasible plan, nobody will believe it can get done.  It doesn't even have to work.  If people believe it will work, they will change their spending habits.  People don't buy based on Keynesian analysis, they buy based on emotion.  Right now, the prevailing emotion towards the economy is negative because our government has PROVEN THEY HAVE NFI WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
You are right about one thing in those three paragraphs. People don't buy based on keynesian analysis. They buy things when they a have money to spend and are confident their job won't go away.

That has nothing to do with the actual amount of the deficit, unless congress and the president get so caught up in the bickering that they let something as stupid as the sequester go through. The sequester is a legitimate threat to jobs and will decrease both confidence and demand.
"They buy things when they a have money to spend and are confident their job won't go away."

DING!!  DING!!  DING!!!

You're right about one thing.  Joe Citizen does not spend based on the deficit/debt itself.  But worries about an inept government and it's inability to function in a rational way, such as what we have right now, as evidenced by their complete refusal and/or inability to even attempt to address an ever growing national debt, has resulted in a severe lack in confidence.
If the government decided to eliminate the deficit and pay down the debt while demand was still sluggish, it would certainly be a sign of incompetence and signal bad news for jobs.
3/5/2013 6:58 PM
Normally jumping on a moving train would be a bad idea.

If there is a man with an axe trying to kill you and the only way to get awa if jump on the train it becomes a good idea.

The debt is a man with an axe. It is going to kill us if we dont fix it.

It is the single greatest threat to the Ameican way of life.
3/5/2013 7:05 PM
Posted by swamphawk22 on 3/5/2013 6:58:00 PM (view original):
Normally jumping on a moving train would be a bad idea.

If there is a man with an axe trying to kill you and the only way to get awa if jump on the train it becomes a good idea.

The debt is a man with an axe. It is going to kill us if we dont fix it.

It is the single greatest threat to the Ameican way of life.
No, no it isn't.

We've had over a trillion dollars in debt for over 30 years. It's just debt.
3/5/2013 7:10 PM
A double shot of stupidity:

swamp: "The debt is the single greatest threat to the American way of life"

bad_luck: "Nah.  It's just sixteen trillion dollars."
3/5/2013 7:11 PM
As a percentage of GDP the debt has skyrocketed under Obama. We need to fix it now before we hit the point of no return.
3/5/2013 7:18 PM
Posted by swamphawk22 on 3/5/2013 7:11:00 PM (view original):
As a percentage of GDP the debt has skyrocketed under Obama. We need to fix it now before we hit the point of no return.
Did Obama massively increase spending or did GDP shrink because of a huge recession?
3/5/2013 7:24 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 3/5/2013 7:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by swamphawk22 on 3/5/2013 7:11:00 PM (view original):
As a percentage of GDP the debt has skyrocketed under Obama. We need to fix it now before we hit the point of no return.
Did Obama massively increase spending or did GDP shrink because of a huge recession?

The bottom line is we are in danger as a nation because dept to GDP is at record levels. Obama is swelling the national debt.

So he President needs to fix it, but Obama couldnt fix a flat tire.

3/5/2013 7:26 PM
Posted by swamphawk22 on 3/5/2013 7:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 3/5/2013 7:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by swamphawk22 on 3/5/2013 7:11:00 PM (view original):
As a percentage of GDP the debt has skyrocketed under Obama. We need to fix it now before we hit the point of no return.
Did Obama massively increase spending or did GDP shrink because of a huge recession?

The bottom line is we are in danger as a nation because dept to GDP is at record levels. Obama is swelling the national debt.

So he President needs to fix it, but Obama couldnt fix a flat tire.

A) congress controls spending, talk to them. B) explain why $14 trillion is so much more dangerous than $11 trillion or $6 trillion or $2 trillion. The people that loan the government money don't seem worried, since they are accepting near zero interest rates.
3/5/2013 7:28 PM
And if we get to the point where that isnt true anymore what do we do...

We collapse because then it is too late.

We are approaching the poin of no return....Lets fix it before then!
3/5/2013 7:31 PM
Can you guys hold on for a few minutes while I make some popcorn?  This looks like it's going to be entertaining.
3/5/2013 8:23 PM
That's the question I'm asking too.

Why is 14 Trillion dollars in debt worse than 2 Trillion?

Anyone? Anyone?

Bueller?
3/5/2013 8:47 PM

Call your mortgage holder and tell them to increase your principal balance sevenfold.

3/5/2013 8:49 PM
You know it's not the same thing.
3/5/2013 8:52 PM
Posted by caesari on 3/5/2013 8:23:00 PM (view original):
That's the question I'm asking too.

Why is 14 Trillion dollars in debt worse than 2 Trillion?

Anyone? Anyone?

Bueller?
That was not a serious question, was it?
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