4/2/2013 6:34 PM
Mike, if any religious fanatic insists that their belief should be law, based on religion, I'd call that a poor reason. I'm pretty sure the same religion we are discussing would have frowned on equal rights for women if our society didn't overwhelmingly agree on it not too long ago.
4/2/2013 6:37 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 4/2/2013 6:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/2/2013 4:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/2/2013 2:45:00 PM (view original):
Are children better served being raised in gay-parent households or straight-parent households?
If I found information that showed that African American households raised children worse than white households, would you then say African Americans shouldn't be married?
If that were the case, then I would say that they should be given less preference to adopt over white families.
Would you then say that we should also consider revoking their right to marry?
4/2/2013 6:42 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/2/2013 6:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/2/2013 6:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 4/2/2013 4:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/2/2013 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 4/2/2013 3:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/2/2013 3:23:00 PM (view original):
Has the American Sociological Association ever backtracked on a finding?  Are they infallible?
I'm sure they have. What's your point? There is evidence showing that children of gay couples are just as well off as children of straight couples.
Swamp's favorite source indicates that gay couple adoption has been legal for less than 20 years. 

How much evidence can there be?
Twenty years worth.

And anyway, we're allowing gay couples to adopt already. Allowing them to marry doesn't change the fact that they are raising children.
Perhaps allowing gay couples to adopt was a mistake to begin with.

As Mike already pointed out, 20 years worth of "evidence" can hardly be a significant sample size.
I tend to agree with this.

Children can be cruel.  Being "different" can make a child's life a little rough.   Having two dads is different even if it's more mainstream today than it was 10 years ago.
It would be tougher. Just like if the child is poor. Or black. Or handicapped. Or dumb. Or ugly.
4/2/2013 6:46 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/2/2013 6:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/2/2013 6:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/2/2013 6:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 4/2/2013 4:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/2/2013 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 4/2/2013 3:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/2/2013 3:23:00 PM (view original):
Has the American Sociological Association ever backtracked on a finding?  Are they infallible?
I'm sure they have. What's your point? There is evidence showing that children of gay couples are just as well off as children of straight couples.
Swamp's favorite source indicates that gay couple adoption has been legal for less than 20 years. 

How much evidence can there be?
Twenty years worth.

And anyway, we're allowing gay couples to adopt already. Allowing them to marry doesn't change the fact that they are raising children.
Perhaps allowing gay couples to adopt was a mistake to begin with.

As Mike already pointed out, 20 years worth of "evidence" can hardly be a significant sample size.
I tend to agree with this.

Children can be cruel.  Being "different" can make a child's life a little rough.   Having two dads is different even if it's more mainstream today than it was 10 years ago.
It would be tougher. Just like if the child is poor. Or black. Or handicapped. Or dumb. Or ugly.
Mike has a special sympathy for the dumb ones.
4/2/2013 9:09 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/2/2013 6:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/2/2013 6:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/2/2013 4:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/2/2013 2:45:00 PM (view original):
Are children better served being raised in gay-parent households or straight-parent households?
If I found information that showed that African American households raised children worse than white households, would you then say African Americans shouldn't be married?
If that were the case, then I would say that they should be given less preference to adopt over white families.
Would you then say that we should also consider revoking their right to marry?
No.  As I mentioned earlier, I have no problem with anybody marrying anybody else of the opposite sex.  
4/2/2013 10:16 PM
But it seemed you were giving the reason of "inability to raise children as well" as a reason not to marry. What's the difference here? If it's just that's they're the same sex, you'll have to explain further.
4/3/2013 5:57 AM
I did not give "inability to raise children as well" as a reason not to allow gay marriage.  Somebody else mentioned gays adopting children and I responded, as a tangental discussion.
4/3/2013 8:51 AM
I'm all for equal rights, but when you take a step back and look at it, everyone already has equal rights - any person can marry someone of the opposite sex. That's equality.
4/3/2013 8:55 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 4/2/2013 6:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/2/2013 6:29:00 PM (view original):

IMO, maybe gay marriage should have came BEFORE gay adoptions. 

But I'm sure the liberals fought for them in the backwards order because single straight people are allowed to adopt.

If single people are allowed to adopt, how would you suggest we go about weeding out homosexuals?
I'm not so sure letting single people adopt is a good idea.

We have some pretty good data on single parent households.    It's not good.
4/3/2013 8:58 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/2/2013 6:34:00 PM (view original):
Mike, if any religious fanatic insists that their belief should be law, based on religion, I'd call that a poor reason. I'm pretty sure the same religion we are discussing would have frowned on equal rights for women if our society didn't overwhelmingly agree on it not too long ago.
I'm not real keen on telling people their religion is bad for people.   I don't believe you can convince a very religious person to change their mind on a whole lot of subjects if it's religion-based.     You can fight that fight.
4/3/2013 9:00 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/2/2013 6:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/2/2013 6:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/2/2013 6:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 4/2/2013 4:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/2/2013 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 4/2/2013 3:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/2/2013 3:23:00 PM (view original):
Has the American Sociological Association ever backtracked on a finding?  Are they infallible?
I'm sure they have. What's your point? There is evidence showing that children of gay couples are just as well off as children of straight couples.
Swamp's favorite source indicates that gay couple adoption has been legal for less than 20 years. 

How much evidence can there be?
Twenty years worth.

And anyway, we're allowing gay couples to adopt already. Allowing them to marry doesn't change the fact that they are raising children.
Perhaps allowing gay couples to adopt was a mistake to begin with.

As Mike already pointed out, 20 years worth of "evidence" can hardly be a significant sample size.
I tend to agree with this.

Children can be cruel.  Being "different" can make a child's life a little rough.   Having two dads is different even if it's more mainstream today than it was 10 years ago.
It would be tougher. Just like if the child is poor. Or black. Or handicapped. Or dumb. Or ugly.
Why would you intentionally make a child's life tougher?     Not much they can do about being poor, black, handicapped, dumb or ugly.    But you don't have to adopt them out to homosexuals. 

And, to be clear, I'm not saying they can't be great parents.   I'm sure they can.   But they can't protect a child from his/her peers 24/7.  Nor should they.
4/3/2013 9:28 AM
I'm not fighting any fight against religious fanatics.  Just that they can't make their thoughts into law based on religion.

If we're against making a child's life tougher, we should ban adoption to minorities and poorer people.  And should we allow marriage to people with IQs under 90? They're just going to make dumb kids.  They might be great parents, but they can't protect their kids from his peers 24/7.
4/3/2013 9:30 AM
Back on topic.  Back to this (I took out the word we didn't like in the statement):

Take a step back and consider this statement: "Two consenting adults love each other and want to get married." What person would want to prevent that?
4/3/2013 9:38 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/3/2013 9:28:00 AM (view original):
I'm not fighting any fight against religious fanatics.  Just that they can't make their thoughts into law based on religion.

If we're against making a child's life tougher, we should ban adoption to minorities and poorer people.  And should we allow marriage to people with IQs under 90? They're just going to make dumb kids.  They might be great parents, but they can't protect their kids from his peers 24/7.
They can have their opinion.   And, if they want to fight to make it law, well, that's their choice, right?   I don't think we can just dismiss it as "religious fanaticism".

IMO, yes on everything you just asked.  I have no problem setting children up to succeed rather than fail.   But you have to keep in mind that I'm for required abortions for anyone who can't afford a child.   Why bring a child into the world in a bad situation?   I don't see the "Right to bear children" in the BoR.
4/3/2013 9:40 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/3/2013 9:30:00 AM (view original):
Back on topic.  Back to this (I took out the word we didn't like in the statement):

Take a step back and consider this statement: "Two consenting adults love each other and want to get married." What person would want to prevent that?
Someone who objects to their union for whatever reason.

For instance, I don't want siblings getting married.   I don't care if they're 30 years old and sterilized.   I don't want that to become commonplace.   I don't care if they're consenting, love each other and want to get married.
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