6/19/2013 4:59 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/19/2013 4:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 4:30:00 PM (view original):
Maybe you should answer the question before asking one.
Hello, pot.   Stop being so goddam black.
6/19/2013 5:01 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 3:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2013 3:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 3:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2013 3:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/19/2013 2:39:00 PM (view original):
Or, to reference tec's pie analogy, Is there any significant difference between an apple pie and a blueberry pie?   Aside from one being made with apples and the other being made with blueberries?
Nope, they are both still pie. Fruit/sugar filled pastries baked in an oven.
Legally formalized and recognized relationship = pie

Marriage = apple pie (one type of pie)

Civil Union = blueberry pie (a different type of pie)
Or

Marriage = pie
Straight marriage = apple pie
Gay marriage = blueberry pie
Nope.  You're (incorrectly) assuming that all legally formalized and recognized relationships are "marriage".  They are not.
I didn't say they were. But since marriage already includes gay couples, you really can't exclude them from whatever flavor of pie represents marriage.
One can call a pie made of blueberries an apple pie if they wish.  But that doesn't make it an apple pie.  It's still a blueberry pie.  You cannot change the fundamental aspect of what something is.

Same with marriage.  Some states may call a legalized same-sex union a "marriage", but that doesn't make it one.  Because a marriage is man/woman, bride/groom, husband/wife, etc.
6/19/2013 5:10 PM
6/19/2013 5:14 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 6/19/2013 4:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2013 3:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 6/19/2013 2:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2013 2:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 6/19/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):
Can't believe I'm posting in here again.

Directed towards tec.  Aside from the obvious, do you see a significant difference between a loving relationship between 2 people of the opposite sex and 2 people of the same sex?
OK.  I assume you are talking about a legally formalized and recognized relationship.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

The only difference I see is that one (opposite sex) would be a traditional marriage, and the other (same sex) would be a civil union.  Similar things, different connotations.
Not what I mean.  Take the marriage out of it for now.  Is there a significant difference between a loving, healthy heterosexual relationship and a loving, healthy homosexual relationship?  Aside from the fact that one is homosexual and the other is heterosexual?
Not really, other than one has always been generally accepted and embraced by social norms while the other has not.
OK, so let's say there isn't one.

Why do people get married?  They want to make a commitment to each other, that they'll spend the rest of their lives together.  That they'll always love them and be there for them, etc, etc, etc.  

Unless we're missing something - There isn't a difference in how homosexual relationships work.  So the SOLE reason to prevent SSM is because they are members of the same-sex.  And I suppose that myself and BL and others don't really see that as a good enough reason.  They're people.  Two people of the same sex who are in love with each other want to make a commitment to each other through marriage that they'll always be there for each other, and will commit to each other to be the best possible couple they can be.  I don't see how it's significantly different than 2 people of the opposite sex.

You do.  Changing the definition to include same-sex couples is a major step that changes what marriage is for you.  I do understand that it's a change to the classic definition, but I don't see that in itself as a legitimate reason.  I'd like to think I get both sides of any argument.  I'm still trying to understand yours.  Values and tradition...ok.  But I think we like to celebrate marriage as people showing their commitment to each other for the rest of their lives, and that's the important part of marriage.  The man-woman thing seems less important.

I guess I'm asking you to enlighten me a little bit more.  I went back about 8 pages to see if I missed anything new in your argument and didn't see anything.  I'm missing something here.  What it is about marriage that makes the man-woman part of it so important?
First, let's not lose sight of the fact that I'm NOT denying SS partners from making a lasting, legally formalized and recognized bond with each other.  Civil union.  I'm all for it.  AND I'm all for changes in the laws that ensure that SS couples in a civil union have all the exact same legal rights as OS couples have in a traditional marriage.

It's a word.  Marriage.  It has a connotation that is fundamental since the beginning of human culture and civilization, and has been a constant attribute throughout human history (despite the smokescreen that bad_luck seems to keep trying to throw into the mix with IRM).  That connotation is that marriage is between a man and a woman.

Just like you can't call a pie made of blueberries an apple pie, you cannot call a legal SS union a marriage.  Because it's not.

You're not going to find anything new in my argument since page 1 of this thread, because my argument has been consistent since the beginning.
6/19/2013 5:15 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2013 5:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 3:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2013 3:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 3:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2013 3:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/19/2013 2:39:00 PM (view original):
Or, to reference tec's pie analogy, Is there any significant difference between an apple pie and a blueberry pie?   Aside from one being made with apples and the other being made with blueberries?
Nope, they are both still pie. Fruit/sugar filled pastries baked in an oven.
Legally formalized and recognized relationship = pie

Marriage = apple pie (one type of pie)

Civil Union = blueberry pie (a different type of pie)
Or

Marriage = pie
Straight marriage = apple pie
Gay marriage = blueberry pie
Nope.  You're (incorrectly) assuming that all legally formalized and recognized relationships are "marriage".  They are not.
I didn't say they were. But since marriage already includes gay couples, you really can't exclude them from whatever flavor of pie represents marriage.
One can call a pie made of blueberries an apple pie if they wish.  But that doesn't make it an apple pie.  It's still a blueberry pie.  You cannot change the fundamental aspect of what something is.

Same with marriage.  Some states may call a legalized same-sex union a "marriage", but that doesn't make it one.  Because a marriage is man/woman, bride/groom, husband/wife, etc.
Actually, that's exactly what it is. If a state legalized gay marriage, then married gay couples in that state are married.

"Etc." now includes gay couples in 11 states.
6/19/2013 5:19 PM
So, in 39 states it ain't ****?
6/19/2013 5:19 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 6/19/2013 4:39:00 PM (view original):
I'll answer the question, once tec answers.
I've answered, so now you can answer Mike's.
6/19/2013 5:20 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 5:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2013 5:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 3:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2013 3:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 3:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2013 3:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/19/2013 2:39:00 PM (view original):
Or, to reference tec's pie analogy, Is there any significant difference between an apple pie and a blueberry pie?   Aside from one being made with apples and the other being made with blueberries?
Nope, they are both still pie. Fruit/sugar filled pastries baked in an oven.
Legally formalized and recognized relationship = pie

Marriage = apple pie (one type of pie)

Civil Union = blueberry pie (a different type of pie)
Or

Marriage = pie
Straight marriage = apple pie
Gay marriage = blueberry pie
Nope.  You're (incorrectly) assuming that all legally formalized and recognized relationships are "marriage".  They are not.
I didn't say they were. But since marriage already includes gay couples, you really can't exclude them from whatever flavor of pie represents marriage.
One can call a pie made of blueberries an apple pie if they wish.  But that doesn't make it an apple pie.  It's still a blueberry pie.  You cannot change the fundamental aspect of what something is.

Same with marriage.  Some states may call a legalized same-sex union a "marriage", but that doesn't make it one.  Because a marriage is man/woman, bride/groom, husband/wife, etc.
Actually, that's exactly what it is. If a state legalized gay marriage, then married gay couples in that state are married.

"Etc." now includes gay couples in 11 states.
So if 11 states passed a law that said that pies made with blueberries were to be called apple pies, would that, in fact, actually make them apple pies?
6/19/2013 5:22 PM
No. But this is marriage, not pie. The legal definition of marriage is whatever the law says it is.
6/19/2013 5:25 PM
In 78% of the US, marriage is one man, one woman.    So only 22% of them are ******* up the long-standing definition of marriage.
6/19/2013 5:29 PM
Perhaps a visual will help.

What is wrong with this picture of a slice of apple pie?


6/19/2013 5:30 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 5:22:00 PM (view original):
No. But this is marriage, not pie. The legal definition of marriage is whatever the law says it is.
Why wouldn't a legal definition of apple pie be whatever the law says it is?
6/19/2013 5:31 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/19/2013 5:25:00 PM (view original):
In 78% of the US, marriage is one man, one woman.    So only 22% of them are ******* up the long-standing definition of marriage.
Or 78% are behind but will catch up soon (maybe with an assist from the Supreme Court).
6/19/2013 5:32 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2013 5:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/19/2013 5:22:00 PM (view original):
No. But this is marriage, not pie. The legal definition of marriage is whatever the law says it is.
Why wouldn't a legal definition of apple pie be whatever the law says it is?
Apples and blueberries are tangible things. Marriage isn't.
6/19/2013 5:32 PM
THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE ANY APPLE PIE I'VE EVER SEEN!!!!!!!
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