6/30/2013 2:31 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 2:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/30/2013 7:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 6:27:00 AM (view original):
It also makes me extremely uncomfortable when other conservatives tell me how bad it is for gay couples to adopt children.  I think they've clearly either A) never seen or B) totally ignored statistics on how well the lives of children raised by same-sex couples are likely to turn out relative to foster children.
Apples and oranges, if you're comparing adopted children to foster children.

Let me ask you . . . if a child is to be adopted, do you think there is any potential difference between them being adopted by a traditional mother/father couple, or by a SS couple?
It's not apples and oranges.  There are already many, many children going into the foster system.  It's not like children not adopted by same-sex couples are inevitably going to be adopted by an opposite-sex couple.  Maybe some of the individual children might be, but then someone else won't.  Basically, any child not adopted by a same-sex couple means some child is going to fall into the foster system.  And I believe that an opposite-sex couple makes a slightly better home environment than a same-sex couple.  But the same-sex couple is still significantly better than a single parent, which are extremely common now, and almost indefinably better than the foster care system.
And I believe that an opposite-sex couple makes a slightly better home environment than a same-sex couple.

Thank you.  That's pretty much my point, except I would go with something more than "slightly better".
6/30/2013 2:37 PM
So you're ignoring everything else in there, which is vastly more important?

Address the point that single parents and foster parents are raising millions of children in this country.  We allow that.  Why should we randomly select one rung from the middle of the ladder - nearer the high end of the spectrum - and say we're going to pull this one out?
6/30/2013 2:46 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 2:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/30/2013 7:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 6:27:00 AM (view original):
It also makes me extremely uncomfortable when other conservatives tell me how bad it is for gay couples to adopt children.  I think they've clearly either A) never seen or B) totally ignored statistics on how well the lives of children raised by same-sex couples are likely to turn out relative to foster children.
Apples and oranges, if you're comparing adopted children to foster children.

Let me ask you . . . if a child is to be adopted, do you think there is any potential difference between them being adopted by a traditional mother/father couple, or by a SS couple?
It's not apples and oranges.  There are already many, many children going into the foster system.  It's not like children not adopted by same-sex couples are inevitably going to be adopted by an opposite-sex couple.  Maybe some of the individual children might be, but then someone else won't.  Basically, any child not adopted by a same-sex couple means some child is going to fall into the foster system.  And I believe that an opposite-sex couple makes a slightly better home environment than a same-sex couple.  But the same-sex couple is still significantly better than a single parent, which are extremely common now, and almost indefinably better than the foster care system.
How many children have been raised by same sex couples?

As I asked before, how long have SS couples been allowed to adopt?  10-15 years?   
6/30/2013 2:55 PM
Melbourne University in Australia conducted the largest study to date on this, and preliminary findings show that gay parents are actually doing a better job.

But don't let university studies with large datasets sway your informed opinion.
6/30/2013 2:57 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2336889/Gay-parents-healthier-children-better-self-esteem.html

Now, granted, "better" is media terminology. But I think a simple Google search can go a long way, unless facts interrupt your bias too much.
6/30/2013 3:02 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/30/2013 2:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 2:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/30/2013 7:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 6:27:00 AM (view original):
It also makes me extremely uncomfortable when other conservatives tell me how bad it is for gay couples to adopt children.  I think they've clearly either A) never seen or B) totally ignored statistics on how well the lives of children raised by same-sex couples are likely to turn out relative to foster children.
Apples and oranges, if you're comparing adopted children to foster children.

Let me ask you . . . if a child is to be adopted, do you think there is any potential difference between them being adopted by a traditional mother/father couple, or by a SS couple?
It's not apples and oranges.  There are already many, many children going into the foster system.  It's not like children not adopted by same-sex couples are inevitably going to be adopted by an opposite-sex couple.  Maybe some of the individual children might be, but then someone else won't.  Basically, any child not adopted by a same-sex couple means some child is going to fall into the foster system.  And I believe that an opposite-sex couple makes a slightly better home environment than a same-sex couple.  But the same-sex couple is still significantly better than a single parent, which are extremely common now, and almost indefinably better than the foster care system.
How many children have been raised by same sex couples?

As I asked before, how long have SS couples been allowed to adopt?  10-15 years?   
People have been having children and then coming out of the closet and continuing to raise their children with a same-sex partner much longer than that...  And other countries have allowed same-sex adoption longer than that...
6/30/2013 3:12 PM
Posted by deathinahole on 6/30/2013 2:55:00 PM (view original):
Melbourne University in Australia conducted the largest study to date on this, and preliminary findings show that gay parents are actually doing a better job.

But don't let university studies with large datasets sway your informed opinion.
A FULL 500 children?!??!   Well, I think that settles that since there's probably only 700-800 children on earth, right?

Self-esteem is overrated.   Give everybody a ******* trophy and they'll feel good about themselves.   Don't tell the fat kid he's fat because you might hurt his feelings.  Sure, he'll die of stroke at 23 but, hey, he'll feel good about himself when he's clutching his chest..

6/30/2013 3:16 PM
Foster children are over 2.5x more likely NOT to graduate from college than children with legal guardians.  They are more likely to go to jail in their lives than not.  They are frequently physically abused.  These things are not true of children who are lucky enough to be adopted by same-sex couples.  You and tec need to lift up those homophobe glasses for a second and see the world as it really is and seriously consider whether adoption by gay parents is really worse than the alternative.
6/30/2013 3:28 PM
I don't know if it's worse.  Nor do I know if it's better.  But, for Pete's sake, let's go full bore ahead and find out.    The hard way.
6/30/2013 3:30 PM
Hahaha. Cloaking anti-gay bias in "let's be careful" ideology. Get over it.
6/30/2013 3:42 PM
Seriously. You don't give a **** about kids, so it's not that. Marriage, you did it because the wife wanted it, so it's not that. You are not particularly religious, so it's not that.

Just say you don't like gay people. What's wrong with admitting it? It won't be popular, bit at least you could stop the bullshit justification.
6/30/2013 3:42 PM
What do you think are the odds it's worse to grow up in a gay family than a (more likely several) foster family/ies?  There is a decent body of statistics that suggests that children raised by same-sex parents are slightly MORE likely to graduate from college and LESS likely to go to jail than children raised by opposite-sex parents or children raised by single parents.  I do believe those statistics are skewed.  The portion of society most likely to go to jail and least likely to graduate from college - people from inner cities - vote Democrat when they bother to vote, but it's one of the most homophobic environments in the country, and very few inner city same-sex couples exist.  So that's gonna tend to depress crime rates and improve college stats.  But I'm willing to bet that the harms of being raised by a same-sex couple are small relative to the harms of growing up in the foster system, yes.  Absolutely.
6/30/2013 3:57 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 6/30/2013 2:22:00 PM (view original):
My point is: just because "A" is better than "B", that doesn't necessarily make "A" a good or desirable thing.
But if A is an improvement over B, then why not choose A over B?

Because B is happening anyway.
6/30/2013 5:01 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 3:42:00 PM (view original):
What do you think are the odds it's worse to grow up in a gay family than a (more likely several) foster family/ies?  There is a decent body of statistics that suggests that children raised by same-sex parents are slightly MORE likely to graduate from college and LESS likely to go to jail than children raised by opposite-sex parents or children raised by single parents.  I do believe those statistics are skewed.  The portion of society most likely to go to jail and least likely to graduate from college - people from inner cities - vote Democrat when they bother to vote, but it's one of the most homophobic environments in the country, and very few inner city same-sex couples exist.  So that's gonna tend to depress crime rates and improve college stats.  But I'm willing to bet that the harms of being raised by a same-sex couple are small relative to the harms of growing up in the foster system, yes.  Absolutely.
I'll give you this . . . the foster system in this country is ****** up.  Many people are into the foster parent thing less for the betterment of the kids, and more to collect the state issued benefits for themselves.  Basically, it's a variation of the "welfare queen".

The adoption system in this country is also ****** up in that there is so much red tape that qualified potential adoptive parents are often passed over, which is why you see so many adoptive parents going oversees (Russia, China) to adopt rather than adopting here at home.  Basically, because they are given little choice but to do so.

Fix the adoption problem in the U.S., and you'll have less children needing to go into foster care.

Fix the foster system to weed out the "foster queens", and those kids who do go into the foster system will have better experiences.

Neither of these things have to do per se with SS vs. OS couples, but since you seem to want to bring the conversation to adoption vs. foster care, I thought I'd bring it up.
6/30/2013 5:01 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 6/30/2013 3:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/30/2013 2:22:00 PM (view original):
My point is: just because "A" is better than "B", that doesn't necessarily make "A" a good or desirable thing.
But if A is an improvement over B, then why not choose A over B?

Because B is happening anyway.
Because there may be far better options than A.
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