I learned something from customer support that surprised me.

The only way to avoid a penalty if you promote a MinL player to the ML to fill in for someone on the DL is to demote him only when that same player comes off the DL,

If you demote that player when a different player comes off the DL, a penalty is possible.

IMO, very poor & unrealistic logic, but that's how it works.

I got a very quick, very clear reply from customer support on this.

Well-known fact.

The logic is that the player knows he's coming up to replace the injured player and likely will be sent back down when that player returns.    If he's kept on the roster after that player returns, he'd feel like he'd earned a spot on the roster with his play.

This has been known for years.

Posted by tecwrg on 3/13/2012 2:15:00 PM (view original):
This has been known for years.

That's why it's a well-known fact.

Thanks, tufft.  It is a fact well-known by the guys who know everything, but less well-known by everyone else.  Greatly appreciated.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/13/2012 2:15:00 PM (view original):
Well-known fact.

The logic is that the player knows he's coming up to replace the injured player and likely will be sent back down when that player returns.    If he's kept on the roster after that player returns, he'd feel like he'd earned a spot on the roster with his play.

The way you worded it, I'm not sure you get it.  Probably because I didn't explain it very well.

You can't send a player back to the MinL before the original player comes off the DL.

I have a different ML player coming off the DL before the one who was replaced by the MinLer.  If I demote that MinLer when the other player comes off the DL, he can get a demotion penalty.

Silly, but that's how it works.

No, I get it.     Maybe the way I worded it wasn't clear.   The player thinks he's replacing player X.   He thinks he'll be sent back down when player X returns not when player B returns.

But my pretend manager told the pretend player he'd be sent back down when the other player comes off the DL.

My pretend story is as feasible as yours.  IMO, more realistic.

I'm not debating you. This is on my list of things in the game WIS would improve. I get why there needs to be a penalty for frequent demotions and maybe for a demotion after a long time at a level.  But the current model is silly.  Very unrealistic. Until I hear it from a bunch of real pro baseball players, I'll continue to believe that any AA/AAA player who gets a call that they're going to the ML for 1-3 weeks and then will be sent back down would consider that one of the best days of their lives.  Their baseball skills would not drop off when they, as promised, get sent back down.

And I'll repeat this for you because you may not have heard it before:

Without demotion penalties, the smart HBD player would use his 40 man roster like a 25 man roster.   He'd never have to worry about fatigue because he'd just send a guy down for 10 days, put him on rest and call him back up.    The game would change IMMENSELY.

And not for the better.

While Mike is correct about the overall logic of demotion penalties, and this isn't worth the developers really spending any time on, tufft has a point on this one (if we could just snap our fingers and make it so):

A member of your rotation goes down.  You call up your AAA SP1.

A second member of your rotation goes down.  You call up your AAA SP2.

The first guy come off the DL.  Stands to reason that your AAA SP2 would go down, and your AAA SP1 would stay up.  But you can't do that unless you want to take the demotion penalty.  Not a big deal, and probably would be a huge pain in the butt to program.  But would be nice if we could get it!  I've certainly had this scenario in my bullpen before.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/13/2012 5:13:00 PM (view original):
And I'll repeat this for you because you may not have heard it before:

Without demotion penalties, the smart HBD player would use his 40 man roster like a 25 man roster.   He'd never have to worry about fatigue because he'd just send a guy down for 10 days, put him on rest and call him back up.    The game would change IMMENSELY.

And not for the better.

You are forgetting the part about limited number of minor league options, it could only work for so long, same as in the ML.

Posted by tdfactory on 3/13/2012 7:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/13/2012 5:13:00 PM (view original):
And I'll repeat this for you because you may not have heard it before:

Without demotion penalties, the smart HBD player would use his 40 man roster like a 25 man roster.   He'd never have to worry about fatigue because he'd just send a guy down for 10 days, put him on rest and call him back up.    The game would change IMMENSELY.

And not for the better.

You are forgetting the part about limited number of minor league options, it could only work for so long, same as in the ML.

No I'm not.  You only burn one option per season regardless of how many times a player is sent up/down.

It would work long enough.

Posted by gjello10 on 3/13/2012 6:01:00 PM (view original):
While Mike is correct about the overall logic of demotion penalties, and this isn't worth the developers really spending any time on, tufft has a point on this one (if we could just snap our fingers and make it so):

A member of your rotation goes down.  You call up your AAA SP1.

A second member of your rotation goes down.  You call up your AAA SP2.

The first guy come off the DL.  Stands to reason that your AAA SP2 would go down, and your AAA SP1 would stay up.  But you can't do that unless you want to take the demotion penalty.  Not a big deal, and probably would be a huge pain in the butt to program.  But would be nice if we could get it!  I've certainly had this scenario in my bullpen before.

The only valid argument to Mike's point here.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/13/2012 5:13:00 PM (view original):
And I'll repeat this for you because you may not have heard it before:

Without demotion penalties, the smart HBD player would use his 40 man roster like a 25 man roster.   He'd never have to worry about fatigue because he'd just send a guy down for 10 days, put him on rest and call him back up.    The game would change IMMENSELY.

And not for the better.

I agree there should be some penalty or restrictions on repeated promotion & demotion.

I also think the exact way it works now is silly.

Not worth listing any of my ideas how it could be done better.  This is the wrong section of the forum. And does anybody believe WIS is ever going to invest in more than superficial changes to HBD?

There are a lot of ways that it could be improved.  However, most of them are complicated and, like what you discovered at 2:04 yesterday, only a limited few would understand/know about them.   So the problem would still exist. 

I'd have no problem with "Injured player returns, player called up after ST demoted, no penalty" but this would also be used to save BL service time.   IOW, I call up a player after 20 games.   My team is failing miserably and is 9-22.  I feel out of it.   I get a 3 day injury to another player.   I'd 15 day DL him and call-up a scrub.   When the injured player returns, I demote my 20 game call-up instead of the scrub.   I've given myself future options with the 20 game call-up player.