defensive liability at SS Topic

How bad will this guy hurt me if I play him at SS?

https://www.whatifsports.com/HBD/Pages/Popups/PlayerRatings.aspx?pid=7044829

In case the link doesn't work: range = 83, glove = 79, arm strength = 79, arm accuracy = 73

Obviously he is a great hitter, I'm wondering if playing him at SS to allow another decent hitter to play elsewhere is better than playing a good-field, no-hit option at SS.  Advice from the veterans greatly appreciated!


1/26/2016 2:01 PM
Due to roster limitations, I had a similar fielding player at SS last season in Moonlight Graham, except he had 74 glove and 88 arm accuracy. 

31 errors, ten minus plays.  With arm accuracy of 73 I'd guess that's at least 40 errors.


1/26/2016 2:08 PM
What damag says is about right, and it's not pretty. It also neglects accounting for losing the positive defensive impact you would have by having him play 3B or 2B, where he should be playing and would be a plus defender.

You should never sacrifice defense at SS, IMO.
1/26/2016 2:14 PM
*word*
1/26/2016 3:30 PM
Sometimes it's just a mixed bag when it comes to results.  Kreuter isn't as bad as your guy but he's not GG-type either.   I wasn't happy with his results so I moved back to Gonzalez who is a GG-type.

Player Profile: Desi Gonzalez - Hardball Dynasty Baseball | WhatIfSports
Player Profile: Cap Kreuter - Hardball Dynasty Baseball | WhatIfSports

Using my PPPS, here's the results after 360ish innings each.



Kreuter is better.   But here's Kreuter before I made the move:



How did Kreuter get so much better over the last 133 innings?
1/26/2016 4:14 PM
FWIW, I'd never play your guy at SS.   But, after looking at my last post, I wonder if it wouldn't be worth it.
1/26/2016 4:16 PM
My best guess is that he'd cost you about 25-30 runs compared to an average defender, which is right in line with damag's 10 (-) plays and 40 errors.

It's hard for me to imagine a team construction where it's a good idea to play this guy at SS.  On his current team, you're better off getting a replacement value SS-- usually someone with batting ratings in the high 40s and average defensive ratings at SS-- moving the player in question to 3B, and benching or getting entirely rid of Nolan Montague.
1/26/2016 4:35 PM
Would you say that Gonzalez is a better SS than Kreuter?
1/26/2016 4:43 PM
I would never play Gonzalez under any circumstances; I'd (slightly) rather play a guy like Tomas Crespo, who I think is a slightly better than average SS (the cannon makes up for the errors) and who doesn't wet himself every time he faces an RHP.  Crespo. I think, is the kind of SS who is readily available as an AAA veteran in most worlds and can be had for a song, and not even a very good one ("Careless Whisper" maybe)-- he's on my major league roster because I had a catastrophic injury to my real SS after the trade deadline last season.  He's replacement value, and Gonzalez is worse.

I like Kreuter OK defensively and think that he's a good overall SS, although I value SS arm ratings more than most people.  Throwing errors are worse than dropping errors because they yield more bases.  I'd just play him.  Gonzalez is a better glove but the bat is horrifying-- career .250 OBP.
1/26/2016 5:09 PM
Yet, in 360ish, Kreuter is providing better D.

That's why I said sometimes you get a mixed bag of results.   The "real" answer to this question is actually another question?   "What do you think?" followed by "Give him a shot, you obviously WANT to play him at SS, and, if it's not working out, make a change."

I didn't like the results Kreuter was giving me, swapped it out and, somehow, he's improved.

As for Gonzalez, he got 312 AB on a team that lost the WS in 7 games.   It's all in how you build your team.   Never is a word that is misused in HBD.
1/26/2016 6:26 PM
Would it work if you put him on a short leash? Defensive replacements if you are up by 1 in the 7th or later? Still gives him 6 innings a game and he doesn't blow it going late into games.

This of course banks on you having a bench SS with stelar D who couldn't hit the ball off a practice Tee (my favourite players)
1/26/2016 6:35 PM
Kreuter's move started a bit of an avalanche of poorer D.    SIMMY won't move everyone around when a D replacement comes in. 

https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?TopicID=490959&TopicsTimeframe=30&TopicsPage=3

1/26/2016 6:47 PM
Posted by hockey1984 on 1/26/2016 6:36:00 PM (view original):
Would it work if you put him on a short leash? Defensive replacements if you are up by 1 in the 7th or later? Still gives him 6 innings a game and he doesn't blow it going late into games.

This of course banks on you having a bench SS with stelar D who couldn't hit the ball off a practice Tee (my favourite players)
dedelman said this (or something like it) a few posts up: It would be damn near impossible to construct a decent team where it makes any sense to play Lemon at SS.

His bat is too good to not have in the lineup, obviously... so you put him at 3B (or 2B)
This isn't the case for davis' team because he does not have a legit 3B or 2B, but if you have bats at 3B or 2B or both that just need to be in your lineup, slide the worst fielder to LF or RF... you've now improved your D at 3B or 2B and LF/RF.  
If LF/RF need to be in the lineup, just keep on moving down the defensive ladder.  
At some point, you will get to a spot where the bat isn't anywhere near good enough to justify going from 15 errors and 5-10 plus plays (which is a relatively easy player to find that will have a high .500 to low .600 OPS) to 40 errors and 10-20 minus plays at SS, and that is ignoring all of the improved defense you are getting at other positions.
1/26/2016 9:21 PM
Mike's guy (Kreuter), on the other hand, could make sense for use at SS.  He is at just about a neutral range (very few minus plays, maybe some plus?) and only a bit below a decent glove (a few extra errors but not a ton) and has an arm that will generate some plus plays and avoid most throwing errors, and his bat is good enough that a team might be best off with him at SS... just depends on who else is available to play SS and who is available to play 2B (or maybe 3B, if you just don't have a good bat for the slot).

I'd want either a slightly better bat for Gonzalez or about 3-5 better in range to start him at SS.
1/26/2016 9:28 PM
I really dislike the logic of "damn near impossible".  

I've already said I wouldn't play your guy at SS.   But I can EASILY imagine building a decent team where is would make sense to use him at SS.  You decide winning games 19-17 is fun.   You slap your team in a hitter's park and go about acquiring big hitters and high durability/stamina pitching.    Lemon is your best fielder(but far from your best hitter or you muffed it).   He plays SS.   You score 2900 runs and give up 2600.    It would be fun.

Of course, I thought of using the failed C in RF so you have to be able to think outside the box.  After all, a win is a win.   Beyond that, you don't have media, fans or troublesome owners telling you how stupid you are if you give up 2900 runs while scoring 2600.   There's just really no situation that can't be imagined.  Putting it in play might be more difficult but using Lemon at SS wouldn't be the most unreasonable move ever made in HBD.
1/26/2016 10:08 PM
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