All Forums > Gridiron Dynasty Football > Gridiron Dynasty Beta > "D" Vs. Running Out Of The Shotgun, a close look!
3/21/2013 7:56 AM
Different defenses Vs. Running out of the shotgun:

Dime/pass:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 3 DL at the LOS with 6 DB playing the pass. Huge advantage offense.

Dime/run:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 3 DL & 1 LB at the LOS with 6 DB playing the run. Advantage offense.

Nickel/pass:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 4 DL at the LOS with 2 LB & 5 DB all in coverage. Big advantage offense.

Nickel/run:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 4 DL & 1 LB at the LOS with 1 LB & 5 DB in coverage but leaning more toward playing the run. Advantage: Equal

Nickel/Heavy Run:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 4 DL and 2 LB at the LOS with 5 DB playing the run: Big advantage defense.

4-3/run:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 4 DL & 2 LB at the LOS with 1 LB & 4 DB in coverage but leaning toward the run. Huge advantage defense.

Again guy's, IMHO Norbert has this exactly where it should be. I have a big problem with a defense being able to play nickel/pass and shut down a good running game, it's simply not realistic. There was a thread not long ago that talked about how we'll never have a Johnny Manziel type QB in GD. Sure, QB's like Manziel are one out of a million, but in college football we see QB's like Tim Tebow, Eric Crouch and Tony Rice almost every year, and every 5 years or so we'll see a Vince Young or a Michael Vick come along. These guy's are FUN to watch and would be even more fun to coach, but they simply haven't existed in GD...until now. Let's don't take that away, it's part of college football and should be part of GD.
That said, we all know that 1.0 was all run/no pass. Of course it shouldn't be that way either, but just because you should be able to run out of the gun with the right QB doesn't mean that other QB's shouldn't be able to tear it up through the air. It should all be about talent and what defense is on the field against what offense. There should not be anything in the game to "dummy down" and offense, a position (QB) or a defense just because. That is simply not realistic.


3/21/2013 9:46 AM
The real problem here is that there's no way to make in-game adjustments (except changing game plans at halftime, of course).   In real life, if a team is running out of the shotgun all the time, the other team wouldn't continue to approach a shotgun formation as "drop everyone back into coverage" through the rest of the half.  

3/21/2013 10:02 AM (edited)
" I have a big problem with a defense being able to play nickel/pass and shut down a good running game, it's simply not realistic."
The simple fact that teams don't run out of the shotgun proves it IS realistic.
If your a team facing an offense that runs out of the shotgun-you place 2 stout DTs to occupy the 2 guards and the center, you have 2 stout DEs to occupy both OTs, that leaves one TE to block and free the QB from 2 LB's? NOPE, the runs aren't going anywhere.

As for the real life college QB's like Young, Vick, Tebow etc.-are you argueing that they only ran out of the shotgun. I'm not a fan of Tebow and didn't watch him very often, but I don't recall him running out the shotgun (other than a scramble). There were running plays, but they were more an option play-give to the RB or keep for himself (if I'm wrong tell me).

Now in Brava, the leading rusher was a QB-in many of the games he was getting 60 pr 70 runs per game.
IN REAL LIFE-in 2012, RB Montee Ball averaged 24.5 rushes per game, but in GD 3.0, a QB should be able to rush 60 to 70 times a game? That's realistic?

Getting back to Tebow or Young-how many pure rushes did they actually make? How many pure rushes out of the shotgun (I would wager 0 times out of the shotgun)? I would hazard a guess that actual pure runs by Tebow/Young etc were about 10/gm max (not including scrambles when flushed fom the pocket during a pass play). If they were running in the 20's or 30's, defensive players wouldn't need to make the tackle, they could just step on the QB's tongue, because by that point the QBs tongues would be dragging on the ground.

It would seem to me the easiest fix would be to have QB runs/scramble (from the pocket) have a significant drain on a QB's stamina. I think this would have the desired effect without having to curb the yards gained by a QB. You may even be able to increase gains made on a run/scramble by the QB-but ot the detriment of playing time for the QB. 
3/21/2013 11:07 AM
In January 2011 even jconte saw how stupid it was to be able to rack up 8,000 yards a season passing out of the Wish Bone or NDB. A QB running wild 50 times a game out of a passing SG set with no RB's is the same thing. It has nothing to do with coaching it's merely exploiting the writing of the game. It's no more a part of college football than the all pass out of WB and NDB was.

Make the game so it has some resemblance of what real college football looks like.

Bob Hazlewood is right, any team that runs a design QB run out of SG the defense would adjust accordingly. Since we are limited to one adjustment per game these kind of exploitations shouldn't exist and if they do hazing's idea of the QB being gassed after 3-4 plays need to kick in.

3/21/2013 2:09 PM
I haven't looked for formations yet, but in 2009 Tebow avg. 20 carries per game @ 4.2 ypc. In 2001 crouch avg. 18 carries @ 5.5 ypc and in 2005 Young only avg. 14 carries per game but also avg. right at 7 ypc! I agree that no player should ever get even 40 carries, let alone 50 or 60, but that's another issue. I think you're right on hazing when you suggest stamina may be the problem there, but I don't see why a QB should lose any more running the ball than a RB or WR.
As far as RL QB's running out of the shotgun, I guarantee you that manziel and a lot of others spread the field with different formations, including the shotgun, and then run the ball. A&M lived in the shotgun last season! Check out:   http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=ytff1-msgr&p=johnny%20manziel%20video&type=

3/21/2013 2:38 PM (edited)
The problem-those stats don't differentiate between a scramble out of the pocket on a pass play and a designed run play.
As for Manziel-I think your confusing a designed run play, and a QB improvising after being flushed from the pocket, or a designed roll out during a pass play wich uses his improv abilities.

Found this on the A&M/Bama game

"Manziel finished the game 24-of-31 for 253 yards and two touchdowns. He also carried the ball 18 times for 92 yards.
He spent most of the day eluding the Alabama pass rush and keeping plays alive with his feet."

I would guess that at least 8 of those rushing plays were busted pass plays that he turned into positive yards. I would even suggest at least 75% of the rush plays fall into that category.

3/21/2013 3:06 PM
Not true, nowhere close to 75%. I'm loading a video to youtube within a couple of hrs. that will show and will send a link...
3/21/2013 3:57 PM
Just watched a 12 min vid on youtube with Manziel hilights vs bama. Of all the runs he made, most were broken pass plays, 4 that I would say were designed runs plays (one was with 5 OL and 2 RB). All the big run plays were pass plays where Manziel pulled the ball in and took off either because of good coverage, pressure from the DL or Manziel seeing an opening and taking off.

I think Manziel is amazing-lightning in a bottle-I live grenade with the pin pulled.

But if your going to have that element, it needs to be severely restricted by stamina issues. For every run he made, he gave himself the chance to catch his breath with quick passing plays to get the ball to other players.
3/21/2013 4:20 PM
Posted by coach_deen on 3/21/2013 7:56:00 AM (view original):
Different defenses Vs. Running out of the shotgun:

Dime/pass:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 3 DL at the LOS with 6 DB playing the pass. Huge advantage offense.

Dime/run:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 3 DL & 1 LB at the LOS with 6 DB playing the run. Advantage offense.

Nickel/pass:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 4 DL at the LOS with 2 LB & 5 DB all in coverage. Big advantage offense.

Nickel/run:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 4 DL & 1 LB at the LOS with 1 LB & 5 DB in coverage but leaning more toward playing the run. Advantage: Equal

Nickel/Heavy Run:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 4 DL and 2 LB at the LOS with 5 DB playing the run: Big advantage defense.

4-3/run:
5 OL & 1 TE blocking 4 DL & 2 LB at the LOS with 1 LB & 4 DB in coverage but leaning toward the run. Huge advantage defense.

Again guy's, IMHO Norbert has this exactly where it should be. I have a big problem with a defense being able to play nickel/pass and shut down a good running game, it's simply not realistic. There was a thread not long ago that talked about how we'll never have a Johnny Manziel type QB in GD. Sure, QB's like Manziel are one out of a million, but in college football we see QB's like Tim Tebow, Eric Crouch and Tony Rice almost every year, and every 5 years or so we'll see a Vince Young or a Michael Vick come along. These guy's are FUN to watch and would be even more fun to coach, but they simply haven't existed in GD...until now. Let's don't take that away, it's part of college football and should be part of GD.
That said, we all know that 1.0 was all run/no pass. Of course it shouldn't be that way either, but just because you should be able to run out of the gun with the right QB doesn't mean that other QB's shouldn't be able to tear it up through the air. It should all be about talent and what defense is on the field against what offense. There should not be anything in the game to "dummy down" and offense, a position (QB) or a defense just because. That is simply not realistic.


OK we're talking about some things being "simply not realistic".

What is realistic about Texas Lutheran in Sargento world? What is realistic about a college football team running its QB 1,040 odd times out of SG for 6 plus yards a pop? While only passing some 150 times for the season? While using its RB's to rush the ball only 49 times?

I want this realism explained. I've never watched this kind of college football game in my life.

3/21/2013 4:38 PM
Found the game on youtube-quick run through the 1st half. Manziel was 15 for 16 in pass attempts. He also ran the ball 9 times, 7 were scrambles from broken pass plays, 1 designed run out of the shotgun, one designed run with 5 OL and 2 RB in the backfield.
There were also run plays with the RB's taking the carries.
3/21/2013 4:48 PM
Keep in mind a couple things.  The stats from the season were before I updated the rushing.  Only look at rushing numbers from this point on.  Passing is not ready to be tested for results just yet as it is part way through some rebuilding as rushing was before I asked for you to test it.  At some point, passing will be ready to hit hard.  The rushing numbers will be tweaked based on what you guys are finding - which is why I asked for the testing.

If you want to fully examine the shotgun running, I would ask to also look at running out of other formations against pass defenses.  From what I can tell, you'll find similar high results.  I think the rushing against pass defense is getting a little too much credit so I am working on adjusting that, but I think there still has to be an advantage when rushing against a pass defense even if its the QB.  It just shouldn't be as high as it is now.

The other thing to look at is the effects of the Cover settings when rushing out of the shotgun.  Essentially the Cover settings tells you where your Safeties are covering and Short Cover should see a little better results against rushing than Long Cover.

We can never get fully realistic play calling because in real life everything is so dynamic and players react based on what they are seeing.  A defense that sees the QB rush on several shotgun plays is going to start watching for the rush.  A QB that sees the defense might attack the line might change the play to pass to take advantage of the reduced cover.  We would need some sort of conditional adjustments in our game to allow coaches to set these up.  I think most people don't want to see the engine automatically make these adjustments.  Until then, since you can't adjust play calls like this, we need to make sure there isn't anything too cheesy when it comes to match ups.  I would put rushing all the time out of the shotgun for every play in the category of cheese.

3/21/2013 5:03 PM (edited)
Posted by hazing on 3/21/2013 10:02:00 AM (view original):
" I have a big problem with a defense being able to play nickel/pass and shut down a good running game, it's simply not realistic."
The simple fact that teams don't run out of the shotgun proves it IS realistic.
If your a team facing an offense that runs out of the shotgun-you place 2 stout DTs to occupy the 2 guards and the center, you have 2 stout DEs to occupy both OTs, that leaves one TE to block and free the QB from 2 LB's? NOPE, the runs aren't going anywhere.

As for the real life college QB's like Young, Vick, Tebow etc.-are you argueing that they only ran out of the shotgun. I'm not a fan of Tebow and didn't watch him very often, but I don't recall him running out the shotgun (other than a scramble). There were running plays, but they were more an option play-give to the RB or keep for himself (if I'm wrong tell me).

Now in Brava, the leading rusher was a QB-in many of the games he was getting 60 pr 70 runs per game.
IN REAL LIFE-in 2012, RB Montee Ball averaged 24.5 rushes per game, but in GD 3.0, a QB should be able to rush 60 to 70 times a game? That's realistic?

Getting back to Tebow or Young-how many pure rushes did they actually make? How many pure rushes out of the shotgun (I would wager 0 times out of the shotgun)? I would hazard a guess that actual pure runs by Tebow/Young etc were about 10/gm max (not including scrambles when flushed fom the pocket during a pass play). If they were running in the 20's or 30's, defensive players wouldn't need to make the tackle, they could just step on the QB's tongue, because by that point the QBs tongues would be dragging on the ground.

It would seem to me the easiest fix would be to have QB runs/scramble (from the pocket) have a significant drain on a QB's stamina. I think this would have the desired effect without having to curb the yards gained by a QB. You may even be able to increase gains made on a run/scramble by the QB-but ot the detriment of playing time for the QB. 
Vince Young rarely if ever lined up under the center.  All of his runs were from the shotgun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUJ8OUlDF4
3/21/2013 5:01 PM
Make the "rush vs pass" defenses only apply to the first 2 or 3 steps. If defense set to rush and offense passes - defense alters to pass after step 2 (DL begins pash rush, LB drop to cover, DB falls to cover), but offense gets advantage for first two steps (behind line and short passes). Same with rush vs pass, offense gets advantage to step two (ball carrier past LOS or outside) then defense adapts to rush (drops pass coverage and moves to ball carrier).
3/21/2013 5:07 PM
Posted by norbert on 3/21/2013 4:48:00 PM (view original):
Keep in mind a couple things.  The stats from the season were before I updated the rushing.  Only look at rushing numbers from this point on.  Passing is not ready to be tested for results just yet as it is part way through some rebuilding as rushing was before I asked for you to test it.  At some point, passing will be ready to hit hard.  The rushing numbers will be tweaked based on what you guys are finding - which is why I asked for the testing.

If you want to fully examine the shotgun running, I would ask to also look at running out of other formations against pass defenses.  From what I can tell, you'll find similar high results.  I think the rushing against pass defense is getting a little too much credit so I am working on adjusting that, but I think there still has to be an advantage when rushing against a pass defense even if its the QB.  It just shouldn't be as high as it is now.

The other thing to look at is the effects of the Cover settings when rushing out of the shotgun.  Essentially the Cover settings tells you where your Safeties are covering and Short Cover should see a little better results against rushing than Long Cover.

We can never get fully realistic play calling because in real life everything is so dynamic and players react based on what they are seeing.  A defense that sees the QB rush on several shotgun plays is going to start watching for the rush.  A QB that sees the defense might attack the line might change the play to pass to take advantage of the reduced cover.  We would need some sort of conditional adjustments in our game to allow coaches to set these up.  I think most people don't want to see the engine automatically make these adjustments.  Until then, since you can't adjust play calls like this, we need to make sure there isn't anything too cheesy when it comes to match ups.  I would put rushing all the time out of the shotgun for every play in the category of cheese.

I just don't agree that rushing all of the time out of the shotgun formation would be "cheese". If you go to YouTube and search "Johnny Manziel Highlights" or "Tim Tebow College Highlights" you will see that a HUGE % of their called runs are out of he shotgun. Now I do agree that running the QB out of the shotgun 40-50 times per game is cheese, but not if you mix it up between the QB and 1 or 2 WR. That is more like a team running the option out of shotgun formation, which you also see quite a bit of in these videos. The difference in GD and RL is we can't put a RB in the backfield when running out of the gun. If we could, and gave the ball to the RB 25 times per game I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
All of that said, I 100% understand others outlook on this when I picture a QB lining up in the gun and keeping the ball...over & over. When I set my team up it's with the QB & either 1 or 2 WR splitting carries. What I'm trying to do is get as close to possible at running an option type offense out of the gun (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwMInV2RyYg).

3/21/2013 5:08 PM
Posted by katzphang88 on 3/21/2013 5:01:00 PM (view original):
Make the "rush vs pass" defenses only apply to the first 2 or 3 steps. If defense set to rush and offense passes - defense alters to pass after step 2 (DL begins pash rush, LB drop to cover, DB falls to cover), but offense gets advantage for first two steps (behind line and short passes). Same with rush vs pass, offense gets advantage to step two (ball carrier past LOS or outside) then defense adapts to rush (drops pass coverage and moves to ball carrier).
This is exactly what happens.  Which players are involved in the play at each step may be affected by the rush vs pass call, but the only time there are adjustments to the success is in the first couple steps.  At some point, the defense realizes it is a rush even though they were originally looking for a pass.
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