All Forums > Gridiron Dynasty Football > Gridiron Dynasty Beta > 62 rushes for 567 yrds and 6 TDS by.....
3/22/2013 7:39 PM
WRs in National title game.  I know rushing is still a bit out of whack but should I get torched like that?
3/22/2013 10:20 PM
Matt, those 2 particular wr's are beasts. The only bright spots on my otherwise worthless team.  I only switched to wr running because YAC are screwed right now and left me no choice but to abandon the pass.  One of the wr's that ran up your butt also got 4000 yards receiving in one season. Not to mention, you played a nickel pass medium/deep the whole game and made no halftime adjustments. 

No team all year could contain these 2 kids whether it be rushing or receiving. Classic case of playing your strengths.  If I had a stud RB or TE then I would of focused on them. BUT I didn't.
3/22/2013 10:35 PM
3/23/2013 1:35 AM
All I gotta say is I'm glad this isn't the final product. I think Navy passes more then what happened in that championship game..lol. Whats with the YAC being more then the actual yards? Throwing behind the line of scrimmage every play? 
3/25/2013 11:47 AM
A big part of this, I think, is Stamina.  I will try to get this worked out so we can view game results with a little more realistic fatigue.  Another part of this is i think the pass defense versus the rush is still a little too weak.  But this is how tweaking the engine works, small steps and analyze.
3/25/2013 2:09 PM
Norbert, like I said; "all2mat"  played the wrong defense for 62 plays.  I tested the same offense against my own "proper" defense(my defense has much lower ratings than his) and the final score was 9-6 with only about 250 yards rushing on both sides.

He had 7 guys off the line of scrimmage with 5 of them deep. Couple this with the fact I slammed him with 2 of the best players in D3 and then ask yourself, "what other result would one expect?"
3/25/2013 2:24 PM
Plus, with the fatigue issue if you really look at the PBP here you will notice that these 2 wr's were getting 10+ yards at the beginning of drives(fresh) and towards the end of drives(fatigued) they were only getting around 4 yards/carry. 

Keep in mind these are the extreme situations. 2 sr (outstanding) wr's on the 1st season of Beta.  I focused on these 2 all season.  The national semi's I played the exact same gameplan (in the 1st half) but abandoned it in the 2nd half because he was shutting me down because he played a 43 always run, 100% blitz defense.

Darn near beat me too.  www.whatifsports.com/gdbeta/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx
3/25/2013 2:48 PM

tigerpark - this is a beta. You found a "leak" in the beta, which is exactly what we are supposed to do. This does not have as much to do with the wrong defense, as you seem to believe. The matter is that 62 rushes by wr's are a defect out of any formation or game. So, that result needs to be non-effective in a football sim game.

3/25/2013 3:11 PM
I don't have as much of a problem with the yardage results as the number of rushes, but this is also an issue with the number of rushes we are seeing with RBs out of any of the formations as well.  I think the rush numbers are only off by a little and maybe slightly even more off with pass defense, but I think the rush numbers are getting there.  I want to get the fatigue in to see how the numbers look then.  I am taking into account the differences in defensive settings and the game planning effects on the results, which I think are all tending the right way and maybe only need a little tweaking.  If a team is running QBs or WRs out of passing situations, the numbers shouldn't be super enhanced just because the defense is set up for pass, but the numbers should definitely reflect that its the wrong defense - then you factor in team match ups and I can definitely see these WRs getting some good rushing numbers.  There's also some discrepancy in the generated upper class players and the lower class players that you can get some pretty big mismatches in talent alone.

The real question is how much should a team be able to get away with in GD with the pre-set game plans where in real life a team would be able to adjust after a couple drives.  On one hand, I think a coach should be able to game plan and give his team a better chance, but on the other hand, I don't want people switching from one unlikely game plan to another and being successful just because they don't follow conventional football wisdom.

3/25/2013 5:06 PM
Posted by aegsm76 on 3/25/2013 2:48:00 PM (view original):

tigerpark - this is a beta. You found a "leak" in the beta, which is exactly what we are supposed to do. This does not have as much to do with the wrong defense, as you seem to believe. The matter is that 62 rushes by wr's are a defect out of any formation or game. So, that result needs to be non-effective in a football sim game.

I'm sorry but I am going to have disagree with the "leak" logic.

Sometimes wide receivers are used to run the ball, usually in some form of end-around or reverse. This can be effective because the defense usually does not expect them to be the ball carrier on running plays. Although receivers are rarely used as ball carriers, running the ball with a receiver can be extremely successful. For example, in addition to holding nearly every National Football League receiving record, wide receiver Jerry Rice also rushed the ball 87 times for 645 yards and 10 touchdowns in his 20 NFL seasons. 7.41 yds/carry.

I guess you would say that the 2007 Florida Gators found a leak with rushing Tim Tebow and Percy Harvin so much.  If there were 2 percy harvins on florida's team and the defense did NOT key in on them (just like the team I played) they probably would of gotten the ball 62 times also.  Be that as it may, did you know harvin 
Harvin helped the Florida Gators win two BCS National Championships in three seasons. He set the Gators’ record for most career rushing yards by a wide receiver (1,852) and most rushing yards by a wide receiver in a season (858 rushing yards in 2007).

Key points: my 2 other wr's would not have done that. My top 2 wr's also would not of rushed like that provided Simpson did there homework like Carnegy Melon did.

I also think the same 2 wr's brought forth a change in YAC. 

Honestly, I am lobbying for wr firepower because te's will never dominate like RB's can and there needs to be some balance to when the game's (functionality)morphs back into gd 1.0. My biggest fear is that no matter what we do; rushing becomes unstoppable and coaches start recruiting 8 rb's, 12 OL and use there punter to handoff just like in gd 1.0.  And thats fine if it comes down to that but I want something else that can dominate. Like wr's for example.

The one thing we are unable to test in a few seasons in beta is how great coaches will eventually dominate in recruiting. Once this happens and they have there teams in order (5 or 6 seasons down the road) the best coaches would have primed there teams to rush and stop the rush.  The best teams will force each other into the 3 yards and a cloud of dust. We cannot see this right now because it has yet to be developed through time. BUT, It will Happen. I have already talked to some of the original longtimers who are already licking there chops at what they can accomplish with marginal OL and RB's. Imagine how it will be once they have been recruiting for 5 seasons.

NOW, once again; thats fine if they want to do that but unlike version 1.0 I want to find something new to exploit. If a team has 12 DL, 12 ol, and 10 RB's than I want to make them pay in ways they are NOT designed to stop.  OR if a team plays a completely wrong defense for 62 straight play then GOD dang it they should pay.  Each receiver only had rushes in the 20's because I designed it on purpose for my crappy QB to get 20% of the carries.

It was NO leak.

3/25/2013 7:27 PM
someone thats tries as hard to convince people of anomalies  that you are usually knows its an anomaly.   so your saying Jerry Rice rushing 87 times in 20 seasons is the same as 62 times in one game?  

GD 2.0 had the same thing with the wishbone passing being unstoppable.

as aegsm76 said good job finding the leak and hopefully Norbert fixes it before the real product.
3/25/2013 7:32 PM
Posted by tigerpark135 on 3/25/2013 5:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by aegsm76 on 3/25/2013 2:48:00 PM (view original):

tigerpark - this is a beta. You found a "leak" in the beta, which is exactly what we are supposed to do. This does not have as much to do with the wrong defense, as you seem to believe. The matter is that 62 rushes by wr's are a defect out of any formation or game. So, that result needs to be non-effective in a football sim game.

I'm sorry but I am going to have disagree with the "leak" logic.

Sometimes wide receivers are used to run the ball, usually in some form of end-around or reverse. This can be effective because the defense usually does not expect them to be the ball carrier on running plays. Although receivers are rarely used as ball carriers, running the ball with a receiver can be extremely successful. For example, in addition to holding nearly every National Football League receiving record, wide receiver Jerry Rice also rushed the ball 87 times for 645 yards and 10 touchdowns in his 20 NFL seasons. 7.41 yds/carry.

I guess you would say that the 2007 Florida Gators found a leak with rushing Tim Tebow and Percy Harvin so much.  If there were 2 percy harvins on florida's team and the defense did NOT key in on them (just like the team I played) they probably would of gotten the ball 62 times also.  Be that as it may, did you know harvin 
Harvin helped the Florida Gators win two BCS National Championships in three seasons. He set the Gators’ record for most career rushing yards by a wide receiver (1,852) and most rushing yards by a wide receiver in a season (858 rushing yards in 2007).

Key points: my 2 other wr's would not have done that. My top 2 wr's also would not of rushed like that provided Simpson did there homework like Carnegy Melon did.

I also think the same 2 wr's brought forth a change in YAC. 

Honestly, I am lobbying for wr firepower because te's will never dominate like RB's can and there needs to be some balance to when the game's (functionality)morphs back into gd 1.0. My biggest fear is that no matter what we do; rushing becomes unstoppable and coaches start recruiting 8 rb's, 12 OL and use there punter to handoff just like in gd 1.0.  And thats fine if it comes down to that but I want something else that can dominate. Like wr's for example.

The one thing we are unable to test in a few seasons in beta is how great coaches will eventually dominate in recruiting. Once this happens and they have there teams in order (5 or 6 seasons down the road) the best coaches would have primed there teams to rush and stop the rush.  The best teams will force each other into the 3 yards and a cloud of dust. We cannot see this right now because it has yet to be developed through time. BUT, It will Happen. I have already talked to some of the original longtimers who are already licking there chops at what they can accomplish with marginal OL and RB's. Imagine how it will be once they have been recruiting for 5 seasons.

NOW, once again; thats fine if they want to do that but unlike version 1.0 I want to find something new to exploit. If a team has 12 DL, 12 ol, and 10 RB's than I want to make them pay in ways they are NOT designed to stop.  OR if a team plays a completely wrong defense for 62 straight play then GOD dang it they should pay.  Each receiver only had rushes in the 20's because I designed it on purpose for my crappy QB to get 20% of the carries.

It was NO leak.

rice had 31 carries and perry had 30 carries
3/25/2013 8:39 PM
The only thing this game proved is what happens when you use the wrong defense.
3/25/2013 8:55 PM
Posted by all2matt on 3/25/2013 7:28:00 PM (view original):
someone thats tries as hard to convince people of anomalies  that you are usually knows its an anomaly.   so your saying Jerry Rice rushing 87 times in 20 seasons is the same as 62 times in one game?  

GD 2.0 had the same thing with the wishbone passing being unstoppable.

as aegsm76 said good job finding the leak and hopefully Norbert fixes it before the real product.
Jerry Rice probably would of had 30 carries per game if the offensive coordinator saw nickel pass medium/deep every single play.

Yeah, I just hope he doesn't pull the data from our game or else anyone else who tries to run a wr is going to end up with a 15 yard LOSS.

Look, we can go round and round with this. I would be willing to admit it that rushing a wr 30 times per game would be crap if you would be willing to admit that you were the reason my wr's ran 60 times. Had you of gotten within 1 point of me in the 4th quarter; my offense would of switched to ND Box. It never happen. I was willing to run those wr's until you stopped them. Which you could of easily with defensive change.  You simply were not interested in figuring it out.
3/25/2013 10:35 PM
tp - I have no axe to grind here, you are convinced of your viewpoint and I am not!
Carry on!
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