4/10/2013 4:06 PM
Posted by norbert on 4/10/2013 2:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tarrin on 4/10/2013 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bjaygee on 4/10/2013 1:58:00 PM (view original):
"HOF coaches getting killed by sims and not making the playoffs while NEW or less experienced coaches are winning NCs."  That's an excellent description of 2.0.  You might add "Talent doesn't matter" and "Coin flip" while you're at it.  The new engine, whatever its faults, does several important things very well.

1. It rewards better recruiters and allows them to leverage talent advantages.
2. It makes gameplanning relevant.  An undertalented team can beat a better compeitior with a superior gameplan.
3. It provides an easily understood 'cause and effect' relationship so that coaches can improve their opportunities to win. I can't imagine anyone losing to a SIM running the default offense and defense settings unless the talent differential is huge.

That said, I think passing is still nerfed but norbert said he'll be delaing with that eventually.  Some of the beta controls may be cumbersome but they're BETA. You may disagree but I am firmly convinced that 3.0 represents a quantum leap forward.      
I've never had that problem in 2.0. Yeah once in a while a SIM would pull off the upset, but not every game like in 3.0. And i agree the layout etc is awesome and more detailed, but the drop down menus that i was used to have changed. For example, stamina USED to go from "fresh" to "very tired". NOW it's 60% to 90% rest level. So does that mean if i have a player with 40 stamina, 70% would be his rest level or should it be lower or higher? It was easier to determine the substitution of a player when using the fresh to very tired format. I'm gettin killed in games and i check the PBP and i see players all in the RED even tho % is set low for low stamina, and high for high stamina. Maybe i'm totally wrong with how rest level is implemented in 3.0. Wish we had info about that.

Not sure how you are interpreting rest level, but it's just how much fatigue the player has.  The player starts out at 100% and fatigues as the game goes on.  80% is 80% regardless of the Stamina.  Stamina just determines how quickly the player gets to 80%.  If they are at 80% then it means they are playing at 80% of their capacity.  The "fresh" terminology you see in the 2.0 settings has a percentage next to it.  It's the same exact thing only it just shows percentage now.  I didn't think people really needed to have a "fresh" thrown on a percentage, plus what I define as fresh might be different from what you define as fresh.
In 2.0, i usually have 2 RBs that can start. I use the fresh or fairly fresh options based on their stamina. Plus i split carries 70-30 or 60-40. How to interpret that into 3.0 is where i'm having issues. My RBs are not getting subbed in and out as frequently as i hoped. The starter don't come out until hes in the red. Is that an issue with player settings only or is it that and something else also?
4/10/2013 4:29 PM (edited)
Posted by tarrin on 4/10/2013 4:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by norbert on 4/10/2013 2:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tarrin on 4/10/2013 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bjaygee on 4/10/2013 1:58:00 PM (view original):
"HOF coaches getting killed by sims and not making the playoffs while NEW or less experienced coaches are winning NCs."  That's an excellent description of 2.0.  You might add "Talent doesn't matter" and "Coin flip" while you're at it.  The new engine, whatever its faults, does several important things very well.

1. It rewards better recruiters and allows them to leverage talent advantages.
2. It makes gameplanning relevant.  An undertalented team can beat a better compeitior with a superior gameplan.
3. It provides an easily understood 'cause and effect' relationship so that coaches can improve their opportunities to win. I can't imagine anyone losing to a SIM running the default offense and defense settings unless the talent differential is huge.

That said, I think passing is still nerfed but norbert said he'll be delaing with that eventually.  Some of the beta controls may be cumbersome but they're BETA. You may disagree but I am firmly convinced that 3.0 represents a quantum leap forward.      
I've never had that problem in 2.0. Yeah once in a while a SIM would pull off the upset, but not every game like in 3.0. And i agree the layout etc is awesome and more detailed, but the drop down menus that i was used to have changed. For example, stamina USED to go from "fresh" to "very tired". NOW it's 60% to 90% rest level. So does that mean if i have a player with 40 stamina, 70% would be his rest level or should it be lower or higher? It was easier to determine the substitution of a player when using the fresh to very tired format. I'm gettin killed in games and i check the PBP and i see players all in the RED even tho % is set low for low stamina, and high for high stamina. Maybe i'm totally wrong with how rest level is implemented in 3.0. Wish we had info about that.

Not sure how you are interpreting rest level, but it's just how much fatigue the player has.  The player starts out at 100% and fatigues as the game goes on.  80% is 80% regardless of the Stamina.  Stamina just determines how quickly the player gets to 80%.  If they are at 80% then it means they are playing at 80% of their capacity.  The "fresh" terminology you see in the 2.0 settings has a percentage next to it.  It's the same exact thing only it just shows percentage now.  I didn't think people really needed to have a "fresh" thrown on a percentage, plus what I define as fresh might be different from what you define as fresh.
In 2.0, i usually have 2 RBs that can start. I use the fresh or fairly fresh options based on their stamina. Plus i split carries 70-30 or 60-40. How to interpret that into 3.0 is where i'm having issues. My RBs are not getting subbed in and out as frequently as i hoped. The starter don't come out until hes in the red. Is that an issue with player settings only or is it that and something else also?
Where are you seeing that a player is "in the red"?

Where were you seeing that a player you wanted to play LT is actually playing G/C?

If you want players subbed in more often, then increase the rest level-increase from say 80% to 90%. If something is happening you don't like, don't you experiment with the settings? Make adjustments?
4/10/2013 4:39 PM
In the PBP you can click each play and it expands showing who is at each position, OFF and DEF. That's where i'm noticing some OL are out of position and other players still in the game even though they are gassed and need subbed in. And YES i do make adjustments and experiment with the settings. I get the same results regardless of what i change and tweak. SIM teams running for 300+ yards a game, thas just rediculous imo SMH. My team CAN't  be that bad.
4/10/2013 4:40 PM
Also, it would be nice for coaches who have figured it out to pass the info along to those of us who struggle with the changes.
4/10/2013 4:41 PM
Posted by tarrin on 4/10/2013 4:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by norbert on 4/10/2013 2:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tarrin on 4/10/2013 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bjaygee on 4/10/2013 1:58:00 PM (view original):
"HOF coaches getting killed by sims and not making the playoffs while NEW or less experienced coaches are winning NCs."  That's an excellent description of 2.0.  You might add "Talent doesn't matter" and "Coin flip" while you're at it.  The new engine, whatever its faults, does several important things very well.

1. It rewards better recruiters and allows them to leverage talent advantages.
2. It makes gameplanning relevant.  An undertalented team can beat a better compeitior with a superior gameplan.
3. It provides an easily understood 'cause and effect' relationship so that coaches can improve their opportunities to win. I can't imagine anyone losing to a SIM running the default offense and defense settings unless the talent differential is huge.

That said, I think passing is still nerfed but norbert said he'll be delaing with that eventually.  Some of the beta controls may be cumbersome but they're BETA. You may disagree but I am firmly convinced that 3.0 represents a quantum leap forward.      
I've never had that problem in 2.0. Yeah once in a while a SIM would pull off the upset, but not every game like in 3.0. And i agree the layout etc is awesome and more detailed, but the drop down menus that i was used to have changed. For example, stamina USED to go from "fresh" to "very tired". NOW it's 60% to 90% rest level. So does that mean if i have a player with 40 stamina, 70% would be his rest level or should it be lower or higher? It was easier to determine the substitution of a player when using the fresh to very tired format. I'm gettin killed in games and i check the PBP and i see players all in the RED even tho % is set low for low stamina, and high for high stamina. Maybe i'm totally wrong with how rest level is implemented in 3.0. Wish we had info about that.

Not sure how you are interpreting rest level, but it's just how much fatigue the player has.  The player starts out at 100% and fatigues as the game goes on.  80% is 80% regardless of the Stamina.  Stamina just determines how quickly the player gets to 80%.  If they are at 80% then it means they are playing at 80% of their capacity.  The "fresh" terminology you see in the 2.0 settings has a percentage next to it.  It's the same exact thing only it just shows percentage now.  I didn't think people really needed to have a "fresh" thrown on a percentage, plus what I define as fresh might be different from what you define as fresh.
In 2.0, i usually have 2 RBs that can start. I use the fresh or fairly fresh options based on their stamina. Plus i split carries 70-30 or 60-40. How to interpret that into 3.0 is where i'm having issues. My RBs are not getting subbed in and out as frequently as i hoped. The starter don't come out until hes in the red. Is that an issue with player settings only or is it that and something else also?
Part of this is a problem with the sub logic that I will be changing in the next beta update.  Basically right now, it is making a player play while they should be resting rather than picking another player that is not resting IF there is only 1 player in the depth chart, or there is more than 1 player but they all are also set to needing rest.  I will be changing it to look for a player that isn't resting to fill a slot before it throws in a guy that is set to rest.  I think that will probably give you a better sub pattern that you will recognize.

The Split setting was removed because it also created some confusion now that you can have multiple RB depth charts and the idea of having a primary and backup isn't always straight forward.  Of course, a new user won't have ever seen the Split setting and won't be confused as they won't be looking for a way to replace it.  It's the users moving from 2.0 to 3.0 that will have the steepest learning curve and I hope we can work us all through that.  If you look at the difference between the 3.0 Basic settings and Advanced settings, 2.0 settings fit somewhere in between those - more than Basic and less than Advanced - which is why it is sometimes confusing when trying to equate 3.0 settings to the 2.0 settings.  My advice would be to learn the 3.0 settings and then figure out how to get similar results from them versus trying to match settings, but start with the Basic settings and understand those before opening up the Advanced settings.  I think once you understand the settings, you really won't feel like anything was lost between 2.0 and 3.0.  Also, I hope we can get more help on the settings and will be adding it to both the pages and the FAQ.  That in itself might help with some of the confusion.

In 2.0, keep in mind that the rest settings were tied to each position.  If you set "Fresh" for running backs it was for all running backs.  But essentially you were settings a rest level that you wanted those players to be subbed out at.  Same thing in 3.0, only rather than setting it for all RBs at one rest level, you can set it for individual players.  Say for instance you have a very studly RB, you may want him to be playing even if he gets to 75% whereas you might have a less talented player that you'd rather not be playing if he gets to 85%.  You can set that.

Rest level is not tied to a specific depth chart at this time because a player can be in several depth charts and rather than set a player to 75% in both depth charts, you just set it once.  There is also a problem with setting per depth chart in the case where they could be conflicting.  What would it mean if you set a player to 75% in one depth chart and 80% in another?  Yes, this is one of the learning curves between 2.0 and 3.0, but once you understand where you set the rest level and what it means, I think there won't be the confusion there is now.

For getting shared carries amongst your RBs, part of that will be worked out when I put that fix in I mentioned above for the subs.  For the most part, people can get the right amount of splits just using the RB depth chart and rest level.  If you want to gain more control over splits, you can start working with the Advanced settings and create new formations that pull from alternate depth charts and build playbooks that mix in these alternate formations to get back ups in at certain times.  BUT you shouldn't even try that until you get more comfortable with the settings.

I think a lot of people clicked on the Advanced Mode to see what it gave them or thinking since they played GD for quite a while that they should be using Advanced settings.  I would suggest the opposite.  Play using the Basic settings.  Figure those out.  You'll probably find you are missing a few things like setting a FB or ILB vs OLB, but figure out how everything works together.  Once you have a handle on how Formation Sets work with the playbooks and how depth charts work with the Formation Sets, THEN open up Advanced Mode and learn your new options in bite sizes.  I'm thinking the new Player Guide should probably have a good section about moving from Basic Mode to Advanced Mode and possibly even a little bit of a tutorial.

In the meantime, don't be afraid to point out confusing settings or question the difference between 3.0 and 2.0. We can both learn from it.
4/10/2013 5:33 PM
Posted by norbert on 4/10/2013 4:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tarrin on 4/10/2013 4:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by norbert on 4/10/2013 2:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tarrin on 4/10/2013 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bjaygee on 4/10/2013 1:58:00 PM (view original):
"HOF coaches getting killed by sims and not making the playoffs while NEW or less experienced coaches are winning NCs."  That's an excellent description of 2.0.  You might add "Talent doesn't matter" and "Coin flip" while you're at it.  The new engine, whatever its faults, does several important things very well.

1. It rewards better recruiters and allows them to leverage talent advantages.
2. It makes gameplanning relevant.  An undertalented team can beat a better compeitior with a superior gameplan.
3. It provides an easily understood 'cause and effect' relationship so that coaches can improve their opportunities to win. I can't imagine anyone losing to a SIM running the default offense and defense settings unless the talent differential is huge.

That said, I think passing is still nerfed but norbert said he'll be delaing with that eventually.  Some of the beta controls may be cumbersome but they're BETA. You may disagree but I am firmly convinced that 3.0 represents a quantum leap forward.      
I've never had that problem in 2.0. Yeah once in a while a SIM would pull off the upset, but not every game like in 3.0. And i agree the layout etc is awesome and more detailed, but the drop down menus that i was used to have changed. For example, stamina USED to go from "fresh" to "very tired". NOW it's 60% to 90% rest level. So does that mean if i have a player with 40 stamina, 70% would be his rest level or should it be lower or higher? It was easier to determine the substitution of a player when using the fresh to very tired format. I'm gettin killed in games and i check the PBP and i see players all in the RED even tho % is set low for low stamina, and high for high stamina. Maybe i'm totally wrong with how rest level is implemented in 3.0. Wish we had info about that.

Not sure how you are interpreting rest level, but it's just how much fatigue the player has.  The player starts out at 100% and fatigues as the game goes on.  80% is 80% regardless of the Stamina.  Stamina just determines how quickly the player gets to 80%.  If they are at 80% then it means they are playing at 80% of their capacity.  The "fresh" terminology you see in the 2.0 settings has a percentage next to it.  It's the same exact thing only it just shows percentage now.  I didn't think people really needed to have a "fresh" thrown on a percentage, plus what I define as fresh might be different from what you define as fresh.
In 2.0, i usually have 2 RBs that can start. I use the fresh or fairly fresh options based on their stamina. Plus i split carries 70-30 or 60-40. How to interpret that into 3.0 is where i'm having issues. My RBs are not getting subbed in and out as frequently as i hoped. The starter don't come out until hes in the red. Is that an issue with player settings only or is it that and something else also?
Part of this is a problem with the sub logic that I will be changing in the next beta update.  Basically right now, it is making a player play while they should be resting rather than picking another player that is not resting IF there is only 1 player in the depth chart, or there is more than 1 player but they all are also set to needing rest.  I will be changing it to look for a player that isn't resting to fill a slot before it throws in a guy that is set to rest.  I think that will probably give you a better sub pattern that you will recognize.

The Split setting was removed because it also created some confusion now that you can have multiple RB depth charts and the idea of having a primary and backup isn't always straight forward.  Of course, a new user won't have ever seen the Split setting and won't be confused as they won't be looking for a way to replace it.  It's the users moving from 2.0 to 3.0 that will have the steepest learning curve and I hope we can work us all through that.  If you look at the difference between the 3.0 Basic settings and Advanced settings, 2.0 settings fit somewhere in between those - more than Basic and less than Advanced - which is why it is sometimes confusing when trying to equate 3.0 settings to the 2.0 settings.  My advice would be to learn the 3.0 settings and then figure out how to get similar results from them versus trying to match settings, but start with the Basic settings and understand those before opening up the Advanced settings.  I think once you understand the settings, you really won't feel like anything was lost between 2.0 and 3.0.  Also, I hope we can get more help on the settings and will be adding it to both the pages and the FAQ.  That in itself might help with some of the confusion.

In 2.0, keep in mind that the rest settings were tied to each position.  If you set "Fresh" for running backs it was for all running backs.  But essentially you were settings a rest level that you wanted those players to be subbed out at.  Same thing in 3.0, only rather than setting it for all RBs at one rest level, you can set it for individual players.  Say for instance you have a very studly RB, you may want him to be playing even if he gets to 75% whereas you might have a less talented player that you'd rather not be playing if he gets to 85%.  You can set that.

Rest level is not tied to a specific depth chart at this time because a player can be in several depth charts and rather than set a player to 75% in both depth charts, you just set it once.  There is also a problem with setting per depth chart in the case where they could be conflicting.  What would it mean if you set a player to 75% in one depth chart and 80% in another?  Yes, this is one of the learning curves between 2.0 and 3.0, but once you understand where you set the rest level and what it means, I think there won't be the confusion there is now.

For getting shared carries amongst your RBs, part of that will be worked out when I put that fix in I mentioned above for the subs.  For the most part, people can get the right amount of splits just using the RB depth chart and rest level.  If you want to gain more control over splits, you can start working with the Advanced settings and create new formations that pull from alternate depth charts and build playbooks that mix in these alternate formations to get back ups in at certain times.  BUT you shouldn't even try that until you get more comfortable with the settings.

I think a lot of people clicked on the Advanced Mode to see what it gave them or thinking since they played GD for quite a while that they should be using Advanced settings.  I would suggest the opposite.  Play using the Basic settings.  Figure those out.  You'll probably find you are missing a few things like setting a FB or ILB vs OLB, but figure out how everything works together.  Once you have a handle on how Formation Sets work with the playbooks and how depth charts work with the Formation Sets, THEN open up Advanced Mode and learn your new options in bite sizes.  I'm thinking the new Player Guide should probably have a good section about moving from Basic Mode to Advanced Mode and possibly even a little bit of a tutorial.

In the meantime, don't be afraid to point out confusing settings or question the difference between 3.0 and 2.0. We can both learn from it.
Thanx again for explaining it the way you did. It's making more sense now. I should have stuck with basic mode longer than a couple games before switching to advance mode. Also, i agree with a section about basic mode compared to advanced. A tutorial will be great for those coaches who aren't doing the 3.0. Coaches in my ODAC Conf in Hayes World want me to keep them updated on the changes etc, but i'm having a tough time with explaining the similarities and differences of both versions. I get alot of  "?" lol
4/10/2013 5:45 PM
Posted by tarrin on 4/10/2013 4:39:00 PM (view original):
In the PBP you can click each play and it expands showing who is at each position, OFF and DEF. That's where i'm noticing some OL are out of position and other players still in the game even though they are gassed and need subbed in. And YES i do make adjustments and experiment with the settings. I get the same results regardless of what i change and tweak. SIM teams running for 300+ yards a game, thas just rediculous imo SMH. My team CAN't  be that bad.
In Bava-played 2 sim teams so far
1) Sim went 40-200 yds rushing
2) Sim went 30-52 yds (team is currently ranked WIS #25 and has 3 wins, 2 vs human teams).

In Romero-played 2 sim teams so far (both were sim teams last season-one finished ranked 21st, other finished 8th-so I didn't try to schedule scrubs).
1) Sim went 39-101 yds rushing
2) Sim went 36-90 yds rushing
4/10/2013 9:13 PM
In Bava, I've played two SIMS.  The first ran the ball 40 times and amassed 98 yards.  The second ran the ball 28 times and gained 35 yards.  In Carpenter I've played two SIMS as well.  One ran 36 times for 101 yards and the other 31 times for 54 yards.  I don't see the problem.
4/10/2013 9:39 PM
One thing that I will take exception with is the assumption that 3.0 makes talent mean more than 2.0.
I do not think we have enough data points to say this.
I also believe that with the more inputs in 3.0, that talent may actually mean less.
Gameplanning and settings may be more important.
I would say that I believe 3.0 does have less variablity than 2.0,
4/10/2013 10:03 PM
Posted by aegsm76 on 4/10/2013 9:39:00 PM (view original):
One thing that I will take exception with is the assumption that 3.0 makes talent mean more than 2.0.
I do not think we have enough data points to say this.
I also believe that with the more inputs in 3.0, that talent may actually mean less.
Gameplanning and settings may be more important.
I would say that I believe 3.0 does have less variablity than 2.0,
It seems to me that by doing away with 'normalizing' attributes, talent has to mean more.  A QB with a GI rating of 30 is a 30, whether in D3 or D1, not some imaginary number calculated to reduce the gap between the highest and lowest rated position players at a given level.  A 10 point talent advantage is now a true 10 point advantage, not something less, and should (and apparently does) produce expected results.
4/11/2013 10:09 AM (edited)
Good thought, but the elimination of normalization would really just affect the high and low end of the talent pool.
Those in the middle would still be in the middle.
At least imho...
4/11/2013 10:23 AM

I'd think normalization affected all players because it extended across all attributes and masked what should have otherwise been serious flaws. Disparity in attribute scores had significantly less impact since the effort was made to artifically limit the advantages provided by higher scores. The effect was certainly greater on the higher and lower ends of the talent pool, but every player was affected and game results skewed by this leveling. 

4/11/2013 11:05 AM
Keep in mind when you are looking at Sim AI teams that they are essentially teams given the same level of talent every other team was given when the worlds were created and players were generated.  The only difference is that they run on default settings for their game plans.  Once we get a few seasons of recruiting in and those generated players drop off, we should get a better idea of what it means to play a Sim AI team.
4/11/2013 12:40 PM
Posted by norbert on 4/11/2013 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Keep in mind when you are looking at Sim AI teams that they are essentially teams given the same level of talent every other team was given when the worlds were created and players were generated.  The only difference is that they run on default settings for their game plans.  Once we get a few seasons of recruiting in and those generated players drop off, we should get a better idea of what it means to play a Sim AI team.
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