All Forums > Gridiron Dynasty Football > Gridiron Dynasty Beta > Oriole - Give us some insight
6/18/2013 8:59 PM (edited)
Norbert had at one time gave us a breakdown of how to read the PBP. Could you give us an update so we can help disect some of the info?

I give the following play with some questions:

13:06 Own 37 1-10   OFF: Trips: Pass short    DEF: Nickel: Nickel
 

Keith Hawkins takes the snap and drops back to pass. [Pass Defense - long cover]
[STEP:1 LOC:InsideLine ACT:Passing]
[LINE: ins:79-76 str:79-74 agi:60-54 (0.2/-0.2)  (So: As I understand: 1st # is Off, 2nd# is Def.) ?Why can't these be lumped together in one? ?If manpower advantage is present - combine that into the one #?  
ADV:Equal/Equal RESULT:EqualBlocking/DefenseModerate ] ?How is it that defense is moderate with those results?

The defense has heavy pressure on Hawkins. ?With those fairly equal to offense advantage does heavy pressure happen?
 [STEP:2 LOC:InsideLine ACT:Passing]
[LINE: ins:80-77 str:81-74 agi:55-53 (0.2/-0.2) ADV:Equal/Equal RESULT:EqualBlocking/EqualBlocking ] (Numbers would indicate equal line play - stalemate)
[PASSThrow: Loc:OutsideShort (2) Open:Open Pressure:NotSet Throw:OnTarget ]?Heavy pressure in step 1 - where did that go?
Hawkins throws to Hankins (Sims) at the SFA 39 (short). Hankins makes the catch. (Yea Hankins!) ?What about match-up #'s for Hankins and Sims?
[STEP:3 LOC:OutsideShort ACT:Receiving]
[BLOCK: 0-57 (-0.1) ADV:Disadvantage RESULT:DefenseModerate ](No blocking on Sims, but is he still in the play?)
[TKLATT: No Tackle Attempt ] ?What happened to Sims? (We should see broken tackle at least)
[STEP:4 LOC:Medium ACT:Receiving]
[BLOCK: 60-53 (-0.7) ADV:Disadvantage RESULT:DefenseModerate ](Again we see Off with high number but Def advantage - roll the -0.7 player advantage into the number)
[TKLATT: 75-60 (0) BLKResult:DefenseModerate ADV:SlightDisadvantage MOM:0 RESULT:TackleAvoided ]
Roland Hayes can't get his hands on Hankins. ?Comparison # for Hayes vs Hankins? ?With a 75-60 advantage why does DEF Moderate occur - and if defense is Moderate why does tackle avoided occur?
[STEP:5 LOC:Long ACT:Receiving]
[BLOCK: 51-56 (-0.3) ADV:GreatDisadvantage RESULT:DefenseStrong ] (51 to 56 is <10% should be closer to equal not GREAT disadvantage and who is blocking whom)
[TKLATT: 76-60 (-1) BLKResult:DefenseStrong ADV:GreatDisadvantage MOM:1 RESULT:GoodTackleAttempt ] (Followed by 76 to 60 on attempted tackle by ? with strong defense?)
[TACKLE: 76-55 (-1) MOM:1 ATTResult:GoodTackleAttempt ADV:SlightAdvantage RESULT:GoodTackle ] (Now the advantage is 76 to 55 for OFF, but tackle occurs?)
Hankins is tackled by Mark Wilson at the UNH 47. 16 yards on the play.

0 0  

In just this one play, you can see how many items don't fit the numbers. These should be addressed and the PBP code should make sense before we begin tweaking to get results for the final product. If these don't make sense - how can we progress to adding new layers onto these decision points?????
6/20/2013 10:30 AM
37 hours and no response on this. 
6/20/2013 7:40 PM
Tick.    Tock.   Tick.   Tock.
6/21/2013 2:23 PM
" as time keeps on slipping, slipping into the future..."
6/21/2013 10:17 PM
GD is heading for the scrap yard. The lack of response here makes me think it's  a forgone conclusion. I won't play this version of GD and at this point I guess it's a good reason to break my GD habit. 
6/21/2013 10:48 PM
Posted by fastec27 on 6/21/2013 10:17:00 PM (view original):
GD is heading for the scrap yard. The lack of response here makes me think it's  a forgone conclusion. I won't play this version of GD and at this point I guess it's a good reason to break my GD habit. 
+1

For those old enough, remember when Dandy Don Meredith would sing this on ABC's Monday Night Football? "Turn out the lights the parties over. They say that all good things must end. Call it a night. The parties over...."
















6/22/2013 3:09 PM
It's been all over since Feb. when it started. Forget v3, And don't touch v2, or it'll get screwed up also.
6/23/2013 12:18 AM
(No time left for you) On my way to better things
(No time left for you)
I'll find myself some wings
(No time left for you) Distant roads are calling me
(No time left for you)
 
6/23/2013 8:46 AM
Time has come today 
Young hearts can go their way 
Can't put it off another day 
I don't care what others say 
They say we don't listen anyway 
Time has come today
6/24/2013 5:27 PM
Six days on the road, and we still won't have an answer tonight ...

6/24/2013 8:34 PM
Sent a site mail asking if anyone was working on GD.  "waitin' for the world to change"
6/24/2013 9:10 PM
The waiting is the hardest part
Every day you see one more card
You take it on faith, you take it to the heart
The waiting is the hardest part
6/25/2013 10:16 AM
I'll try my best to explain here. Also, sorry for the delay.

Keith Hawkins takes the snap and drops back to pass. 
[Pass Defense - long cover]
[STEP:1 LOC:InsideLine ACT:Passing]
[LINE: ins:79-76 str:79-74 agi:60-54 (0.2/-0.2)  (So: As I understand: 1st # is Off, 2nd# is Def.) ?Why can't these be lumped together in one? ?If manpower advantage is present - combine that into the one #?

The last numbers in that list (0.2/-0.2) that is the advantage of the line on the inside and on the outside. That is the Manpower advantage number.

 

ADV:Equal/Equal RESULT:EqualBlocking/DefenseModerate ] ?How is it that defense is moderate with those results?

The majority of the time, the results will go according to the line numbers, but given the randomness of each play and the general equality of the two teams the play of the line can vary. This is DefenseModerate because on this specific play one of the defensive players got a jump on one of the linemen and put pressure on the QB.


The defense has heavy pressure on Hawkins. ?With those fairly equal to offense advantage does heavy pressure happen?
 [STEP:2 LOC:InsideLine ACT:Passing]
[LINE: ins:80-77 str:81-74 agi:55-53 (0.2/-0.2) ADV:Equal/Equal RESULT:EqualBlocking/EqualBlocking ](Numbers would indicate equal line play - stalemate)
[PASSThrow: Loc:OutsideShort (2) Open:Open Pressure:NotSet Throw:OnTarget ]?Heavy pressure in step 1 - where did that go?

We are not looking at the pressure on the QB here, this is the pressure on the PASS. The pass is open. the Heavy pressure is what made the QB checkdown to an outlet short pass and throw the ball in step 2 of the progression.  


Hawkins throws to Hankins (Sims) at the SFA 39 (short). Hankins makes the catch. (Yea Hankins!) ?What about match-up #'s for Hankins and Sims?
[STEP:3 LOC:OutsideShort ACT:Receiving]

These matchup numers are not printed, that's a good point, we can add more detail on this. The bigger factor here is that the pass is very short yardage, high percentage throw.
 
[BLOCK: 0-57 (-0.1) ADV:Disadvantage RESULT:DefenseModerate ](No blocking on Sims, but is he still in the play?)
[TKLATT: No Tackle Attempt ] ?What happened to Sims? (We should see broken tackle at least)

In Step 2 the receiver is said to have been open, this means that he shook Sims in this play and was open. Sims was the cover man, but he was not in position to make the tackle.

[STEP:4 LOC:Medium ACT:Receiving]
[BLOCK: 60-53 (-0.7) ADV:Disadvantage RESULT:DefenseModerate ](Again we see Off with high number but Def advantage - roll the -0.7 player advantage into the number)

?This seems a bit suspect. I plan on looking into the advantage of the lines and how that number is calculated. There stands a small chance that this was a terrible roll and the DEF got lucky, but it's one that deserves a second look. 

[TKLATT: 75-60 (0) BLKResult:DefenseModerate ADV:SlightDisadvantage MOM:0 RESULT:TackleAvoided ]
Roland Hayes can't get his hands on Hankins. ?Comparison # for Hayes vs Hankins? ?With a 75-60 advantage why does DEF Moderate occur - and if defense is Moderate why does tackle avoided occur?

This really depends on the positioning of Hankins more than the raw numbers. If hankins was not in the right position to tackle then he misses this tackle
The better question here is that he is not in position despite the defense advantage. I can't explain this thoroughly right now. It will get a deeper investigation. 


[STEP:5 LOC:Long ACT:Receiving]
[BLOCK: 51-56 (-0.3) ADV:GreatDisadvantage RESULT:DefenseStrong ] (51 to 56 is <10% should be closer to equal not GREAT disadvantage and who is blocking whom)

Best answer, Randomness. I know it seems simplistic, but on a single play each comparison rolls the random number is created for each comparison
 


[TKLATT: 76-60 (-1) BLKResult:DefenseStrong ADV:GreatDisadvantage MOM:1 RESULT:GoodTackleAttempt ] (Followed by 76 to 60 on attempted tackle by ? with strong defense?)
[TACKLE: 76-55 (-1) MOM:1 ATTResult:GoodTackleAttempt ADV:SlightAdvantage RESULT:GoodTackle ](Now the advantage is 76 to 55 for OFF, but tackle occurs?)

I'll look into. Seems fishy from the numbers but the result seems fair. I'd guess that the raw advantage numbers aren't the only factors in this part of the play. 
 
Hankins is tackled by Mark Wilson at the UNH 47. 16 yards on the play

I hope this helps some. 
6/25/2013 3:33 PM
I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
It goes like this
The fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah

Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
6/25/2013 8:11 PM
Welcome back Oriole - we missed you. I feel some small need deep inside to comment. I have deleted some segments as those were understandable and responded to well.

Keith Hawkins takes the snap and drops back to pass. 
[Pass Defense - long cover]
[STEP:1 LOC:InsideLine ACT:Passing]
[LINE: ins:79-76 str:79-74 agi:60-54 (0.2/-0.2)   ?If manpower advantage is present - combine that into the one #?
The last numbers in that list (0.2/-0.2) that is the advantage of the line on the inside and on the outside. That is the Manpower advantage number.
Do the other numbers being compared include other modifiers, or are they calculated after?

 
ADV:Equal/Equal RESULT:EqualBlocking/DefenseModerate ] ?How is it that defense is moderate with those results?
The majority of the time, the results will go according to the line numbers, but given the randomness of each play and the general equality of the two teams the play of the line can vary. This is DefenseModerate because on this specific play one of the defensive players got a jump on one of the linemen and put pressure on the QB.
Randomness is a very bad word and a very bad concept in this game. It detracts from player attributes. PLEASE eliminate randomness!

The defense has heavy pressure on Hawkins. ?With those fairly equal to offense advantage does heavy pressure happen?
 [STEP:2 LOC:InsideLine ACT:Passing]
[LINE: ins:80-77 str:81-74 agi:55-53 (0.2/-0.2) ADV:Equal/Equal RESULT:EqualBlocking/EqualBlocking ](Numbers would indicate equal line play - stalemate)
[PASSThrow: Loc:OutsideShort (2) Open:Open Pressure:NotSet Throw:OnTarget ]?Heavy pressure in step 1 - where did that go?
We are not looking at the pressure on the QB here, this is the pressure on the PASS. The pass is open. the Heavy pressure is what made the QB checkdown to an outlet short pass and throw the ball in step 2 of the progression.  
Whoa! Wait a minute! In the answer just above you said "one of the defensive players got a jump on one of the linemen and put pressure on the QB" Now you are saying it is not about pressure on the QB, even though it says heavy pressure on Hawkins - QB. Also in my offense - OutsideShort is a #1 option. Just a little screwy!


 
[STEP:4 LOC:Medium ACT:Receiving]
[BLOCK: 60-53 (-0.7) ADV:Disadvantage RESULT:DefenseModerate ](Again we see Off with high number but Def advantage - roll the -0.7 player advantage into the number)
?This seems a bit suspect. I plan on looking into the advantage of the lines and how that number is calculated. There stands a small chance that this was a terrible roll and the DEF got lucky, but it's one that deserves a second look. 
Again, the "DEF got lucky" is muy malo. Luck should not play a part in the sim.

[TKLATT: 75-60 (0) BLKResult:DefenseModerate ADV:SlightDisadvantage MOM:0 RESULT:TackleAvoided ]
Roland Hayes can't get his hands on Hankins. ?Comparison # for Hayes vs Hankins? ?With a 75-60 advantage why does DEF Moderate occur - and if defense is Moderate why does tackle avoided occur?
This really depends on the positioning of Hankins more than the raw numbers. If hankins was not in the right position to tackle then he misses this tackle
The better question here is that he is not in position despite the defense advantage. I can't explain this thoroughly right now. It will get a deeper investigation. 
I'll let you try again, Hankins is the TE, Hayes is the Defender - still don't know how it even gets close to a DefenseModerate BLKResult. No number advantage so should be one on one. Just confusing.

[STEP:5 LOC:Long ACT:Receiving]
[BLOCK: 51-56 (-0.3) ADV:GreatDisadvantage RESULT:DefenseStrong ] (51 to 56 is <10% should be closer to equal not GREAT disadvantage and who is blocking whom)
Best answer, Randomness. I know it seems simplistic, but on a single play each comparison rolls the random number is created for each comparison
 Oooooh, there's that Randomness word! You can't use player attributes as the real source of outcomes if randomness comes into play so much!


[TKLATT: 76-60 (-1) BLKResult:DefenseStrong ADV:GreatDisadvantage MOM:1 RESULT:GoodTackleAttempt ] (Followed by 76 to 60 on attempted tackle by ? with strong defense?)
[TACKLE: 76-55 (-1) MOM:1 ATTResult:GoodTackleAttempt ADV:SlightAdvantage RESULT:GoodTackle ](Now the advantage is 76 to 55 for OFF, but tackle occurs?)
I'll look into. Seems fishy from the numbers but the result seems fair. I'd guess that the raw advantage numbers aren't the only factors in this part of the play. 
So if the raw advantage numbers aren't reflected in the 76 - 60 and 76 - 55 comparisons, what is changing those numbers to be advantage defense and why can't we see what is modifying those numbers.

Oriole, glad to see you back. But we have been analyzing this game for about 1.5 years and the beta for about 4 months. I feel that biggest problem is that too many items have been added to the game that waters the player attributes down and injects way too much randomness. PLEASE attempt to track down these random occurances, eliminate them so we can see what the game does without them and them we can add them back once the rest of the engine runs more consistently.
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