All Forums > SimLeague Basketball > SimLeague Basketball > Possession Penalty, Where is it?
7/27/2008 4:56 PM
Quote: Originally posted by seble on 7/27/2008
(1) I'm trying to give you parameters without giving away every detail. If you have an existing team you'd like me to check I can.

(2) Any guy close to or above Wilt is pretty much enough by himself to avoid the penalty.

The top 50 in terms of usage percentage (with no other parameters, so there are low minutes guys included), the lowest is 33.something usage. So that begs the question:

Which wilt?

50ppg one? There's only 3 Wilts in the top 50 of usage (and one is a 1700 minute one), so I'm assuming you mean 50ppg one. In that case. the highest scoring kobe and jordan are fine by themselves? You can surround them with low usage guys - and the low usage guys won't suffer a penalty - but Kobe and Jordan probably will (but 50ppg wilt won't? I don't understand how this works).



I'm not going to bother to waste my time anymore on 1. You want to give the customer vague information based on relative terms and won't give a satisfactory answer.

I haven't been around WIS long, and in the time I have been, I've seen a lot of anti-WIS attitudes in the forums and didn't understand why.

Now I'm starting to: WIS is a want-won't relationship.

The consumer (customer, player - US) wants to get their money's worth in the game.
The provider won't give us the information necessary for us to do that.

We don't need to know every detail, man. Nobody wants the code. We just want to know what's possible before wasting their money.

Relative terms don't help.
It's like you're driving on a long trip, but you don't know where you're going. You're on the interstate and the navigator is the person in the passenger's seat. You ask - how far is it to the exit we need to get off on?

Their answer:
"It's not far."

What is far? Is it 1 mile? 5 miles? 25 miles? 100 miles? How is that a helpful answer?

That is the same as saying - "a low/med/high volume guy will do __________"

What is medium volume? What is low volume? You've already said high volume is "a guy like Wilt" - which you can see the consternation in that from the first part of my post.
7/28/2008 12:51 AM
can seble or anyone explain usage% and it's effect on a team's success, or point me in a direction where this stat was adequately defined and explained? There is nothing in the faq about it even though it is apparently a big deal.
7/28/2008 2:39 AM
apparently it's revealing government secrets to explain how something that is apparently vital to a team's success actually works.

That's what I'm getting anyway.
7/28/2008 10:30 AM
Yeah, they've always erred towards the side of secrecy and I don't completely understand it. Seble, you guys have the best basketball sim game out there, but if you're just going to **** your customers off by giving them half answers and ifs ands and maybes, then you're just burning bridges for the sake of burning bridges.

People want to know how this thing works so they can better strategize to output a successful team...I simply don't understand the foot dragging and I never have.
7/28/2008 10:50 AM
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7/28/2008 11:03 AM
Just to give more clarification. Usage% is the percentage of team offensive possessions while that player was on the floor that he took a shot, turned the ball over, or was fouled.

Guys, I understand the frustration. Right now the tiers are:
Usage% >= 32.5 = 8 points
Usage% 27.2 To 32.5 = 6 points
Usage% 22.1 To 27.2 = 4 points
Usage% 17.5 To 22.1 = 2 points
Usage% 13.7 To 20.4 = 1 point
Usage% < 13.7 = 0.5 points

As long as you have 10 points total, you're fine. Less than that incurs a penalty based on how far under you are. This penalty affects all offensive players equally.

It's entirely possible those numbers could change slightly at some point, which is why I'd prefer not to use them. But there they are.

7/28/2008 11:23 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 7/28/2008Just to give more clarification. Usage% is the percentage of team offensive possessions while that player was on the floor that he took a shot, turned the ball over, or was fouled.

Guys, I understand the frustration. Right now the tiers are:
Usage% >= 32.5 = 8 points
Usage% 27.2 To 32.5 = 6 points
Usage% 22.1 To 27.2 = 4 points
Usage% 17.5 To 22.1 = 2 points
Usage% 13.7 To 20.4 = 1 point
Usage% < 13.7 = 0.5 points

As long as you have 10 points total, you're fine. Less than that incurs a penalty based on how far under you are. This penalty affects all offensive players equally.

It's entirely possible those numbers could change slightly at some point, which is why I'd prefer not to use them. But there they are.

Thanks for the information. IMO, I think you should consider altering this formula at some point. For one thing, as it stands now, I think it is too easy to avoid a possession penalty. Secondly, I think you would be better off totaling up the usage% on the court rathering than assigning points to each player based on a tier system.
7/28/2008 11:25 AM
so Karl Malone and Ben Wallace and 3 folding chairs and your team wont suffer a penalty? I can see why you wouldnt want to put the details out on that
7/28/2008 11:33 AM
It's intended to keep people from playing a lineup of highly efficient, low quantity players. Any lineup with Karl Malone at his scoring peak should be able to operate pretty well.
7/28/2008 11:55 AM
Seble - I think users may be mislead by this.

My understanding is that there are two ways low possession teams can be penalyzed. One is based on the tiers above.

Players also start to get penalyzed however when they shoot more in the sim than INRL (as you point out earlier in the thread).

So if you have Malone with a bunch very low possession guys (B wallace, TR Dunn etc) you are still likely to incur the individual penalties despite being OK on that usage tier approach you just outlined. Is this not true?

7/28/2008 12:07 PM
I think a lineup with Malone, Dunn, Rodman, Buse, Eaton could have a total usage somewhere below 67% of normal (100%).

With this line up each player would far exceed the FGA's they had INRL and I would expect they would then recieve significant individual penalties.
7/28/2008 12:20 PM
That's correct, I was not considering any individual penalty here.
7/28/2008 1:32 PM
ok so its not that important, just a tool to keep people from using too many low possession players.

good to know, thanks for the info
7/28/2008 2:35 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 7/28/2008That's correct, I was not considering any individual penalty here.
Wouldn't it be simpler to have a team possession penalty that isn't so easy to avoid and eliminate the individual possession penalty all together?
7/28/2008 3:15 PM
The two penalties are based on slightly different ideas. The team penalty is basically asking "Does this lineup have the ability to execute an offense at a reasonable level of efficiency?". So this penalty could kick in at any point of any game depending on the lineup.

On the other hand, the individual penalty is asking "Is the team asking this player to do more than he did in real life?". This penalty is lessened early in the game to allow for natural randomness causing a player to overpossess at the beginning. It also acts as a safeguard in case we ever implement some way of letting coaches adjust individual possession rates.
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