All Forums > SimLeague Basketball > SimLeague Basketball > Possession Penalty, Where is it?
7/16/2011 5:32 PM
Posted by ashamael on 2/10/2011 10:46:00 PM (view original):
Some of you may have heard vets talking about usage tiers.  This is how it's broken down.

1st tier usage (8 points) 32.5%+
2nd tier usage (6 points) 27.2% - 32.5%
3rd tier usage (4 points) 22.1% - 27.2%
4th tier usage (2 points) 17.5% - 22.1%
5th tier usage (1 point) 13.7% - 17.5%
bottom tier (0.5 points) less than 13.7%
bump
7/24/2011 5:26 PM
this tier info is all still accurate and applicable?
7/24/2011 5:27 PM
such a strange way of doing things....is there a reason why the sim doesnt just add up the usage %s?
7/24/2011 10:50 PM
Posted by hubertpubert on 7/24/2011 5:26:00 PM (view original):
this tier info is all still accurate and applicable?
supposedly
7/24/2011 10:50 PM
Posted by hubertpubert on 7/24/2011 5:27:00 PM (view original):
such a strange way of doing things....is there a reason why the sim doesnt just add up the usage %s?
I agree it's strange.
8/2/2011 12:54 AM
Posted by ashamael on 2/10/2011 10:25:00 PM (view original):
Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 7/28/2008
Just to give more clarification. Usage% is the percentage of team offensive possessions while that player was on the floor that he took a shot, turned the ball over, or was fouled.

Guys, I understand the frustration. Right now the tiers are:
Usage% >= 32.5 = 8 points
Usage% 27.2 To 32.5 = 6 points
Usage% 22.1 To 27.2 = 4 points
Usage% 17.5 To 22.1 = 2 points
Usage% 13.7 To 17.5 = 1 point
Usage% < 13.7 = 0.5 points

As long as you have 10 points total, you're fine. Less than that incurs a penalty based on how far under you are. This penalty affects all offensive players equally.

It's entirely possible those numbers could change slightly at some point, which is why I'd prefer not to use them. But there they are.
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bump
8/30/2011 12:50 AM
stayin' alive.  stayin' alive.
8/30/2011 1:10 AM
I've won a 'ship running up-tempo with only 10.5 usage points... and still get teams that win 50+ games with it... but it seems the sweet spot is higher than 12 usage points... it seems like at that point you start seeing less of the fg% penalty for individual possession penalty, yet you still see the turnovers.  12.5 was my hypothesis, but it may be closer to 15. 

I know that 19.5 is way too much (players don't even get RL possessions).

I'll figure it out someday soon.
8/30/2011 8:48 AM
so wait - 10 isnt 'enough'?
8/30/2011 2:20 PM
Posted by ashamael on 8/30/2011 1:10:00 AM (view original):
I've won a 'ship running up-tempo with only 10.5 usage points... and still get teams that win 50+ games with it... but it seems the sweet spot is higher than 12 usage points... it seems like at that point you start seeing less of the fg% penalty for individual possession penalty, yet you still see the turnovers.  12.5 was my hypothesis, but it may be closer to 15. 

I know that 19.5 is way too much (players don't even get RL possessions).

I'll figure it out someday soon.
I'm surprised you won running uptempo.. I tried the same thing in one of the blacklist leagues and Deron Williams turned the ball over 10 times a bunch of different times.. at least 4 or 5 times, including in the playoffs... had the top seed but the damn turnovers killed us. I think we had about 11 or 12 max usage pts then.

I have a team now in the name change league with only one guy in tier 3. Everyone else is tier 4 with one at tier 5. I'm afraid to run uptempo and have been running half court since the start. It's still very early but we're doing well. We'll see what happens... I'm starting to try more half court stuff now after that ridiculous end of a great regular season in that other league.
8/30/2011 2:33 PM
This might help when building teams:


8/19/2011 4:50 AM garyman
Usage% >= 32.5 = 8 points
Usage% 27.2 To 32.5 = 6 points
Usage% 22.1 To 27.2 = 4 points
Usage% 17.5 To 22.1 = 2 points
Usage% 13.7 To 17.5 = 1 point
Usage% < 13.7 = 0.5 points
_____________

1. Is this still being used nowadays?

27.2, 22.1, 17.5, 13.7
2. These are the cutoffs for each tier but if you look at the tiers, these numbers are in both tiers. So if I have a player with one of these usage numbers, which bracket does he fall into?
8/19/2011 4:52 PM Customer Support
Yes, that's still in effect. If a player is exactly on a margin it would credit him the higher range, but usage% are not rounded, so it would be rare to fall exactly on one.

8/30/2011 2:43 PM
A lot of it is the substitutions throughout the course of the game.  The idiotic sim loves to have a bunch of scrubs on the floor at the same time rather than putting in 1 scrub at a time.  If you can set up your subs so that you always have enough usage you should be ok. 

I know I brought LeBron off the bench once and he did great and the team did great.  When I had him starting, it was wasted usage because Shaq also started.    I subbed him in for at least 2 positions, maybe 3 and the sim loved it. 

Currently I have a ton of starting usage (20 pts) but no 6th man and I'm turning it over 21 a game.  

I would agree with Ash, I think something like 12-15 at all times is optimal. 
8/30/2011 3:03 PM





Starters:     Damon Stoudamire,  Mike Miller,  Donyell,  Troy Murphy,  Shaq             14 pts (I think)
With subs:    LBJ (1, 2 and 3) , Carlos Boozer  (4 and 5)     ~14 pts  

Something like this works very well usage wise, although LBJ is wasted a little bit as a sub and the D ratings are no longer there for MM and Troy. 
Hard to do something like this now with the higher salaries. 
8/30/2011 4:06 PM
but seble said 10 points was enough - are you saying he was wrong? my entire world view is shaken (not stirred)
8/30/2011 4:35 PM (edited)
Posted by garyman on 8/30/2011 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ashamael on 8/30/2011 1:10:00 AM (view original):
I've won a 'ship running up-tempo with only 10.5 usage points... and still get teams that win 50+ games with it... but it seems the sweet spot is higher than 12 usage points... it seems like at that point you start seeing less of the fg% penalty for individual possession penalty, yet you still see the turnovers.  12.5 was my hypothesis, but it may be closer to 15. 

I know that 19.5 is way too much (players don't even get RL possessions).

I'll figure it out someday soon.
I'm surprised you won running uptempo.. I tried the same thing in one of the blacklist leagues and Deron Williams turned the ball over 10 times a bunch of different times.. at least 4 or 5 times, including in the playoffs... had the top seed but the damn turnovers killed us. I think we had about 11 or 12 max usage pts then.

I have a team now in the name change league with only one guy in tier 3. Everyone else is tier 4 with one at tier 5. I'm afraid to run uptempo and have been running half court since the start. It's still very early but we're doing well. We'll see what happens... I'm starting to try more half court stuff now after that ridiculous end of a great regular season in that other league.
Looking back, it was actually 11 usage points even.  But not only did I win, I won 69 games.  I turned it over 20.4 per game vs my opponent only doing 16.8 (so I'm 3.4 possessions per game behind at this point).  But my offensive rebounding (20.5) compared to theirs (11.3) tipped that balance heavily in my favor (9.2 - 3.4 = 5.8).  I'm 5.8 possessions ahead... now let's look at respective fg%:  I shot 48.5; they shot 44.7.  Furthermore, my actualy efg% was 53.7%, while opponents was 48.4%.

That was my first (what I call) EZ as ABC [absolute board control] experiment.  That's the classic Wilt/Shaq at center, 3 rodmans (95, 93 start with 96 coming off the bench) & robert horry (1200 minute season) at forward.  Ellis/Rice at SG, Kidd/Jet at PG.  Since then, I've tried to tweak the team to get it 70+, but all of my efforts have resulted in lower and lower wins. 

Only one won 'ship (Mike Miller/Brent Barry at SG, used 97 rodman instead of 96 off the bench, No backup SF).  That amounted to more usage but came up with more turnovers (23.2 topg!)... I then lowered tov% (used Kerr/Legler at SG) but ended up with even lower fg% (because I lowered the usage even further).  Every single person on that team except Shaq & Wilt shot lower fg% than they did IRL... this was up-tempo with 60% ast%.  So I've added a smidge of usage and upped the defense, lowered the rebounding/added threes, and have ended up regretting that, too (totally different animal without the 3rd Rodman).  This season is young, but 70 wins is already out of reach.

I'm going to probably go back to the 3 Rodmans of the first team and try to figure out some other combination at guard than Ellis/Rice that gives me the threes, the low tov% & the usage (tier 5 for both) that either rebounds better or plays better defense (or both) for the continued experiment.


I've done several teams with 10-11.5 usage and have done well with all (running up-tempo), but all have fallen short with the exception of those two I detailed above.  This is OLs, mind you... theme leagues are a different animal (and often an animal that's friendlier to play with... $42M cap sucks now.  It really, really does).


Posted by badja on 8/30/2011 2:44:00 PM (view original):
A lot of it is the substitutions throughout the course of the game.  The idiotic sim loves to have a bunch of scrubs on the floor at the same time rather than putting in 1 scrub at a time.  If you can set up your subs so that you always have enough usage you should be ok. 

I know I brought LeBron off the bench once and he did great and the team did great.  When I had him starting, it was wasted usage because Shaq also started.    I subbed him in for at least 2 positions, maybe 3 and the sim loved it. 

Currently I have a ton of starting usage (20 pts) but no 6th man and I'm turning it over 21 a game.  

I would agree with Ash, I think something like 12-15 at all times is optimal. 
Well, when you've got 8 points at all times from one position, you always have a minimum of 10.  That's what the Wilt/Shaq combo gives you.

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