All Forums > SimLeague Basketball > SimLeague Basketball > Dream Team (character counts!)
8/8/2012 1:53 PM
Posted by logain on 8/8/2012 10:18:00 AM (view original):
Bill Simmons put together a team in his book.. Post merger guys only. 

86 Bird
03 Duncan
85 Magic
92 Jordan
77 Kareem
---------
86 McHale
92 Pippen
77 Walton
01 Kobe
09 Wade
09 Paul
10 Lebron 
01 Ray Allen

Yeah, this is one of my favorite sections of the book.... but while I don't have a huge problem with any of his choices for the team, I wonder how aware he was that there was only one ball to share on offense.  Having Rodman or Russell on the floor, and basically excluding them from offensive sets (except wide open dunks) might make things simpler for the other offensive powerhouses, and keep them happier.  

Bird would be a welcome addition to the starting line-up, and the one I had lacked a true 3 pt bomber.  Might need to beef up interior defense with him on the floor over Bron though; would need to think about that...
8/8/2012 2:14 PM
If I remember right part of the idea was that Bird would totally subjugate himself to Jordan and Kareem. He had proven his willingness to do this in All Star games. He would make smart passes, hit open shots.. and be there in crunch time. Duncan, Magic, and Bird were chosen for the complete unselfishness. Their understanding of the meaning of a team game. Along with the skills they bring to the table. I think the starting 5 is well chosen anyway. You have to read the reasons behind each of the bench choices to understand specifically why there are there.

For example, are Hakeem and Shaq better all time centers than Walton? Sure. But Bill proved he could be great off the bench in a limited role.. bringing great defense, rebounding and passing in short bursts. 

And.. actually I realized I got the team wrong. He left Kobe off for D. Wade. So reduce that Lakers number by 1 further invalidating the list for some. 

Remember, Simmons is total Boston homer. And his goal was to build a team similar to what he says is the best team ever.. the 86 Celtics.
8/8/2012 2:25 PM (edited)
My dream team would be a bit different... as I would go with my favorite players of all time instead of who I think the best at each position is... I would note that I was born in 1973 and the first basketball game I remember watching was the 79 Championship game between Michigan St and Indiana St. So that will be reflective in how I pick my team out.

PG - Jordan - yeah, I'd have him at the point position. He could do it  (did do it at certain points) and honestly with the team I'm going to put together you really don't need a point guard. Obviously he would be the go to guy on offense being the best to ever play the game.
SG - Pippen - Jordan needs his wing man and Pippen is the guy. He would be the guy I turned to to guard the other teams best perimeter player. Solid shooter, outstanding defender, strong passing.. fits right in.
SF - Larry Bird - My favorite player of all time. I modeled my personal game after his and I was pretty decent. Especially with the fade away jumper.
PF - Charles Barkley - Sir Charles.. the Round Mound of Rebound.. Whats not to love about the guy who threw an elbow against Angola (sp?) in the 92 Olympics. Probably my 2nd favorite player of all time.
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - The Sky Hook, the most unstoppable shot ever. Now when I got to see him play he wasn't as great as he had been in the past obviously but he was still amazing and quite clutch.

Back ups- Only 2 that would play major minutes

Magic Johnson and Lebron James ... With these two you pretty much have all 5 positions covered coming off the bench. They both offer rebounding, assists, and scoring if need be.

the other 5 Guys -

Glen Rice - I'll be honest, he almost broke into the starting line up, it was between him and Pippen. Rice is a silky smooth scorer who can put the ball in the basket from anywhere. I put him on almost every one of my League teams because of this.
Reggie Miller - 3pt specialist
Dennis Rodman - Rugged player, enforcer type
Mark Price - One of my favorite players - great shooter and solid PG
Tim Duncan - Gives size off the bench if needed

Players close to making it -

Dominique Wilkins - I am , have always been, and will always be a Atlanta Hawks fan. I love 'Nique but lets be honest. He was a guy who wasn't an efficient shooter but still scored a ton because of the volume of shots he took and the team that was built around him. He was Iverson before Iverson.

Michael Cooper  - If you got to see him play you would understand. He was a lights out defender, solid 3pt shooter, and a overall good player. But man could he really play defense.

Dikembe Mutombo - Loved him for his time here in Atlanta but at times he really irritated me when he shot the ball. Ha.

Kevin McHale - The best post player I've ever seen. Period.

8/8/2012 3:01 PM (edited)
my favorite Coop moments were when he would chase down the guy on the break and overtake him and slap the ball right back in his face as he went for the score - Chick used to talk about leaving the spalding imprint on their foreheads
8/8/2012 3:08 PM
Posted by logain on 8/8/2012 2:14:00 PM (view original):
If I remember right part of the idea was that Bird would totally subjugate himself to Jordan and Kareem. He had proven his willingness to do this in All Star games. He would make smart passes, hit open shots.. and be there in crunch time. Duncan, Magic, and Bird were chosen for the complete unselfishness. Their understanding of the meaning of a team game. Along with the skills they bring to the table. I think the starting 5 is well chosen anyway. You have to read the reasons behind each of the bench choices to understand specifically why there are there.

For example, are Hakeem and Shaq better all time centers than Walton? Sure. But Bill proved he could be great off the bench in a limited role.. bringing great defense, rebounding and passing in short bursts. 

And.. actually I realized I got the team wrong. He left Kobe off for D. Wade. So reduce that Lakers number by 1 further invalidating the list for some. 

Remember, Simmons is total Boston homer. And his goal was to build a team similar to what he says is the best team ever.. the 86 Celtics.
of course he's biased - he's the most biased national commentator since Tommy and proud of the fact - he doesnt call himself bosoxbill just for S&Gs
8/8/2012 3:38 PM
I can't believe Stockton gets no love here! 

  www.youtube.com/watch
8/8/2012 5:27 PM (edited)
because he's an over-rated product of a system? I'd take Frazier, Payton, Kidd, Zeke, Paul and maybe prime KJ over him
8/8/2012 5:41 PM
Yeah certainly Magic was really lacking in guys to pass to.  Stockton had such overwhelming talent surrounding him that carried him to the Finals?
8/8/2012 5:49 PM
Posted by badja on 8/8/2012 5:41:00 PM (view original):
Yeah certainly Magic was really lacking in guys to pass to.  Stockton had such overwhelming talent surrounding him that carried him to the Finals?
 I didnt say anything about the catch and shoot players Stockton played with I said system - good point -  Magic would have worked in any system with any kind of players - stockton ran that good old clock work pick and roll over and over and over again

as for finals - the jazz teams that got to the finals werent even as good as the jazz teams that had  hard time getting to the second round when Magic was around (2 time DpoY Eaton v Greg Ostertag, Malone and Stockton in their physical primes vs same as old codgers - Thurl Bailey and Darrel Griffith vs Byron Russell and mid 30s hornacek) - dont tell me about finals he lost in an era watered down by rapid expansion, and bad drafts, it's sad
8/8/2012 6:33 PM

Firstly I'm not comparing a top 5 all time player with Stockton, but everyone plays in a "system".    Magic to Worthy/Kareem is not a system?

Magic played on a better team and his WC foes were not any better than Stockton's.  God look at the rosters of the teams they beat in the WC playoffs.

6 seasons of over 50% assist and 50% shooting is way above anyone else not to mention the steals.

Could Stockton succeed with different guys?  Looking at other players who were great passers I'd say yes, easily.   Nash, CP3, LeBron have similar assists no matter who they are surrounded with.

 

8/8/2012 7:09 PM (edited)
It's true, the West that Magic played against for much of his career was pathetic. Houston was good for a couple years.. till that fell apart. Dallas.. nothing that impressive. I remember reading in Bird's book about how they were worn out from playing the tough Eastern Conference schedule and playoffs before they would get to LA.. who could coast through the West.


Another guy noone has mentioned... Havlicek. He should probably be on the bench of some of these teams.
8/8/2012 8:39 PM (edited)
no, the triangle is a system, princeton is a system, the P&R/P tree is a system  - I dont want to be rude to you but players/teammates are not systems - sets and plays are systems and if you dont get what Im saying about that (Sloan ran the same P&R heavy system that played to Stockton's strengths for 20 years) I think we're debating two different things

now as for my original contention

in addition to Magic

I'd take

Frazier
Payton
Zeke
Kidd
Paul
and KJ in his prime

over Stockton

each of those guys in their own ways were better and each was much more of a center-piece player than Stockton was (I'd say Kidd and KJ are closest to debatable but I have a video of KJ dunking on Hakeem to back up my argument on his behalf (only kind of kidding - not something in Stockton's portfolio))

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=kj+dunk+on+hakeem&mid=668A707164FFF35D9034668A707164FFF35D9034&view=detail&FORM=VIRE4
8/8/2012 8:36 PM (edited)
Posted by logain on 8/8/2012 7:09:00 PM (view original):
It's true, the West that Magic played against for much of his career was pathetic. Houston was good for a couple years.. till that fell apart. Dallas.. nothing that impressive. I remember reading in Bird's book about how they were worn out from playing the tough Eastern Conference schedule and playoffs before they would get to LA.. who could coast through the West.


Another guy noone has mentioned... Havlicek. He should probably be on the bench of some of these teams.
the West that the Lakers played in featured Jon Stockton and Karl Malone in their primes playing alongside a two time DPOY and they couldnt get out of the second round - now let's use some logic and try and deduce how those same guys in the back 9 of their careers playing with Greg Ostertag instead of Mark Eaton get to back to back finals... I'll wait for you....

(and Dallas: Derek Harper, Rolando Blackmon, Detlef Schrempf, Roy Tarpley, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins -  nothing that impressive, ok)
8/8/2012 9:28 PM
I think I caused some confusion with my response. I don't disagree with anything said about Stockton. Your list of guys ahead of him in their peak is about right.. I would add Oscar too.


8/8/2012 9:29 PM
To recap:  LA was better than Utah.  Magic was better than Stockton.  I don't get the arguement.

Exchange Magic for Stockton.  Do the Jazz win a title?  I don't think so.  Could be wrong, but I don't think so.







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