All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ichiro's 3000th Hit - 253 to go! First Ballot HOF!
8/26/2013 4:36 PM
Posted by winner77 on 8/26/2013 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Instead of WAR, I think it's more valuable to look at the + stats (OBPS+, AVG+, SLG+) etc.  That gives you the best idea of how a guy did against the rest of the league.

I DO like the concept of defensive WAR because it at least attempts to put a value on a player's defensive ability.  The average fan cannot do this.  I mean, everyone raves about Miguel Cabrera as the best player in the world right now.  He is definitely the best offensive player currently, but (overall) Trout is better when you take into account his defensive ability.  Unless you crunch those numbers, you don't fully understand that fact.

dWAR appears to be flawed.  See this post for discussion about dWAR.
8/26/2013 4:39 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 4:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by winner77 on 8/26/2013 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Instead of WAR, I think it's more valuable to look at the + stats (OBPS+, AVG+, SLG+) etc.  That gives you the best idea of how a guy did against the rest of the league.

I DO like the concept of defensive WAR because it at least attempts to put a value on a player's defensive ability.  The average fan cannot do this.  I mean, everyone raves about Miguel Cabrera as the best player in the world right now.  He is definitely the best offensive player currently, but (overall) Trout is better when you take into account his defensive ability.  Unless you crunch those numbers, you don't fully understand that fact.

dWAR appears to be flawed.  See this post for discussion about dWAR.
Yes, it is flawed....I suppose I should say that I like the idea of some way to put value on defense.  Any time that I have had discussions about Cabrera vs Trout (or anyone else) people shout me down saying that I don't know what I am talking about, Cabrera is king, blah blah blah.  I don't understand WHY people can't look at the overall contributions of a player instead of just his offensive contributions.  I don't even much care who wins the MVP award.  I just get sick of 90% of baseball "fan" opinions being based around what they see on Sportscenter.

It's the same throughout history.  People argue "best player of all time", Mays vs Ruth sorta thing. Better hitter?  Ruth.  Better overall player?  Mays. 

I think the same will hold true as time goes by with Trout and Cabrera.

8/26/2013 4:46 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 2:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 2:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 2:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/26/2013 2:31:00 PM (view original):
And it's what I mean when I say "generally." Obviously baseball is a situational game. But that guy isn't on 3rd base if he doesn't touch 1st first.

I do think you're putting too much emphasis on walks. The guy with the .400 OBP doesn't have a .200 BA.
Of the 4 players listed for 85 MVP, they have 40+ more walks than Mattingly.   Do you think their teams might have been better served with a few of them being hits?
You're assuming that they would have turned those walks into hits instead of outs. 

It's significantly better walk instead of making an out. It's only slightly better to get a hit instead of a walk.

Rickey's OBP was 50 points higher than Mattingly's. That 50 points of OBP is worth about 100 points of SLG.
"That 50 points of OBP is worth about 100 points of SLG."

I dare you to say that out loud, and see how stupid that sounds.  I'll double-dare you to say that in person to somebody who actually knows baseball.  Time how long they laugh in your face and report back here with the results.
This should interest you, too, tec:

wOBA is based on a simple concept: Not all hits are created equal. Batting average assumes that they are. On-base percentage does too, but does one better by including other ways of reaching base. Slugging percentage weights hits, but not accurately (Is a double worth twice as much as a single? In short, no). On-base plus slugging (OPS) does attempt to combine the different aspects of hitting into one metric, but it assumes that one percentage point of SLG is the same as that of OBP. In reality, a handy estimate is that OBP is around twice as valuable than SLG (the exact ratio is x1.8).
8/26/2013 4:57 PM
Nope.  Didn't find that interesting at all.
8/26/2013 4:59 PM
Since I actually watch and understand baseball, I don't find that interesting either.

Baseball is much more than stats and "magic" formulas that are made up by nerds with slide rules.

If you've ever watched a game and understood it, you might get that.
8/26/2013 5:02 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 4:59:00 PM (view original):
Since I actually watch and understand baseball, I don't find that interesting either.

Baseball is much more than stats and "magic" formulas that are made up by nerds with slide rules.

If you've ever watched a game and understood it, you might get that.
True, but how else can we compare players?  That's what the stats are for.  The argument these guys seem to have is which stat has more value....slugging or OBP. 

Personally, I vote for slugging.

8/26/2013 5:04 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 4:59:00 PM (view original):
Since I actually watch and understand baseball, I don't find that interesting either.

Baseball is much more than stats and "magic" formulas that are made up by nerds with slide rules.

If you've ever watched a game and understood it, you might get that.
troll hard, biz
8/26/2013 5:24 PM
Posted by winner77 on 8/26/2013 5:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 4:59:00 PM (view original):
Since I actually watch and understand baseball, I don't find that interesting either.

Baseball is much more than stats and "magic" formulas that are made up by nerds with slide rules.

If you've ever watched a game and understood it, you might get that.
True, but how else can we compare players?  That's what the stats are for.  The argument these guys seem to have is which stat has more value....slugging or OBP. 

Personally, I vote for slugging.

Actually, BL's raging hard-on is for "WAR, ************!!!" as the "one-size-fits-all" stat.

The SLG vs OBP is a side debate as he tried to convince the world that Rickey Henderson was light-years ahead of Don Mattingly with respect to value in 1985.
8/26/2013 5:26 PM
No hard on for WAR. It's just a quick reference point.
8/26/2013 5:31 PM
We have two players:

A good defensive CF who got on base 42% of the time, hit for power, and stole 80 bases.
An average defensive 1B who got on base 37% of the time and hit for slightly more power.

Who in their right mind picks the first baseman?
8/26/2013 5:44 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 5:31:00 PM (view original):
We have two players:

A good defensive CF who got on base 42% of the time, hit for power, and stole 80 bases.
An average defensive 1B who got on base 37% of the time and hit for slightly more power.

Who in their right mind picks the first baseman?
This is true, but I would (personally) rank Mattingly 2nd all-time defensively to Keith Hernandez.  Is 1B as important as CF?  No.  Buuuuuut, Mattingly did play the position he was given exceptionally well, which I think carries some weight.

I think Henderson was better than Mattingly in almost every season they played.  The reason is that Rickey had one huge thing that Mattingly did not ---- SPEED. 

8/26/2013 5:44 PM
Since when did Mattingly become an "average" defensive 1B?
8/26/2013 5:45 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 5:44:00 PM (view original):
Since when did Mattingly become an "average" defensive 1B?
Agreed.  He was pretty freaking awesome at 1B.
8/26/2013 5:46 PM
OK, call him a good defensive first baseman. Does that change much?

I'd still take the CF.
8/26/2013 5:49 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 5:46:00 PM (view original):
OK, call him a good defensive first baseman. Does that change much?

I'd still take the CF.
You also think Kenny Lofton should be considered in HOF discussions, so your judgement skills are questionable.
of 43
All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ichiro's 3000th Hit - 253 to go! First Ballot HOF!

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

Popular on WhatIfSports site: Baseball Simulation | College Basketball Game | College Football Game | Online Baseball Game | Hockey Simulation | NFL Picks | College Football Picks | Sports Games

© 1999-2014 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.