All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ichiro's 3000th Hit - 253 to go! First Ballot HOF!
8/26/2013 5:52 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 5:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 5:46:00 PM (view original):
OK, call him a good defensive first baseman. Does that change much?

I'd still take the CF.
You also think Kenny Lofton should be considered in HOF discussions, so your judgement skills are questionable.
Andre Dawson got in, so I will give Lofton another look.
8/26/2013 5:53 PM
Calling Mattingly average at first goes to show how much you know about baseball. Jack ****.
8/26/2013 5:55 PM
Posted by The Taint on 8/26/2013 5:53:00 PM (view original):
Calling Mattingly average at first goes to show how much you know about baseball. Jack ****.
He is off base with saying Mattingly was only average at first base, but I do agree with his value ranking of Henderson in center being more valuable that Mattingly at first.  I would take a good center fielder over even an excellent first basemen, if fielding was the only variable.
8/26/2013 6:02 PM
Why don't we just call them what they were?

Mattingly was one of the all-time best in the field.   Henderson was a reluctant CF who preferred LF so he could "save his legs."    He was nothing special in his limited CF duty.
8/26/2013 6:02 PM
Nine errors in center is a lot for an outfielder.
8/26/2013 6:05 PM
Henderson had 432 put outs in CF in 1985 in only 141 games.  We could debate it all day...just throwing that out there.  He was ranging all over the place in center that year.  I agree (though).  9 errors is a bit excessive.
8/26/2013 6:06 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:02:00 PM (view original):
Why don't we just call them what they were?

Mattingly was one of the all-time best in the field.   Henderson was a reluctant CF who preferred LF so he could "save his legs."    He was nothing special in his limited CF duty.
He played 141 games in CF in 85. Not exactly limited.
8/26/2013 6:10 PM
Posted by The Taint on 8/26/2013 6:02:00 PM (view original):
Nine errors in center is a lot for an outfielder.
League average fielding percentage for CF in 1985 was .988. Henderson was at .980.

It looks like the high error total was more of a function of his range than anything else. He had a RF/9 of 3.31 (best in MLB) while league average was 2.91.
8/26/2013 6:13 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 5:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 5:46:00 PM (view original):
OK, call him a good defensive first baseman. Does that change much?

I'd still take the CF.
You also think Kenny Lofton should be considered in HOF discussions, so your judgement skills are questionable.
You're a dinosaur. The fact that you won't even consider a player like Lofton shows how little you care about learning more about baseball. The world has passed you by. Must suck.
8/26/2013 6:20 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 5:31:00 PM (view original):
We have two players:

A good defensive CF who got on base 42% of the time, hit for power, and stole 80 bases.
An average defensive 1B who got on base 37% of the time and hit for slightly more power.

Who in their right mind picks the first baseman?
obsolete since u still cannot determine the multitude of people who did pick him. doctor u only declares yourself as not being in their right mind with your comparisons. rickey henderson had 21 uncontested stolen bases. no throw. no sweat. remedy is in the intentional walk totals for the purposes of laying a foundation to set up a double play. its how rickey hendersons eccentric base running habits were overcome by pitching and defense. mattingly had a wheelhouse designed to drive in runs while batting successfully. switch them in the lineup and the expected happens. generally pitchers pitch more effectively while not being distracted by a runner. your argument here that others should see what u see is again not substantiated by the crucial numbers that places mattingly as the better player for the third and fourth line-up positions in the batting order. your claim that leadoff hitters are superior to cleanup hitters just declares that u are not in your right mind claiming rickey as better weighted as a batter. your experiment fails since rickey was given second base and third base at least once per week on an average. rickey hendersons so called power often came when it had no effect on the game's final outcome, much as his stolen bases did not come at crucial times either. power to some third world country to operate the only lightbulb in an area of three hundred square miles cannot be compared to the power needed to keep america lit up. mattinglys power does not compare to rickey hendersons power. mattingly clean up. rickey not.
8/26/2013 6:24 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 6:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by The Taint on 8/26/2013 6:02:00 PM (view original):
Nine errors in center is a lot for an outfielder.
League average fielding percentage for CF in 1985 was .988. Henderson was at .980.

It looks like the high error total was more of a function of his range than anything else. He had a RF/9 of 3.31 (best in MLB) while league average was 2.91.
Could his higher range factor be a product of Yankee Stadium and its old centerfield dimensions?


While you're looking up defensive stats you should look at Mattinglys.
8/26/2013 6:25 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 6:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 5:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 5:46:00 PM (view original):
OK, call him a good defensive first baseman. Does that change much?

I'd still take the CF.
You also think Kenny Lofton should be considered in HOF discussions, so your judgement skills are questionable.
You're a dinosaur. The fact that you won't even consider a player like Lofton shows how little you care about learning more about baseball. The world has passed you by. Must suck.
The fact that you would consider a player like Lofton for the HOF shows that your baseball IQ is in single digits.  On a good day.
8/26/2013 6:27 PM
To me, the debate should be less about the individual fielding stats for each player, but rather about the value of those stats given the position they play.  Mattingly is (well, was) all time favorite ballplayer.  That said, the true baseball fan in me can't say that his value at 1b is higher/better than the value of a very good center fielder with a ton of range. 
8/26/2013 6:30 PM
For the Record:  1985 Mattingly

159 games at 1b, 1318 put outs, 7 errors,  .995 fielding %, Won Gold Glove (if that means anything)

8/26/2013 6:32 PM
A great first baseman makes the entire infield better.
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