All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ichiro's 3000th Hit - 213 to go! First Ballot HOF!
8/22/2013 3:48 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2013 3:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2013 3:28:00 PM (view original):
I was correct about arbitrary, smart guy. But thanks for admitting that you're wrong.
Well, yeah, if you're allowed to make up the meanings of words you sure were correct.   Otherwise, not so much.
Except that I used the Merriam Webster definition of the word.
8/22/2013 3:50 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2013 3:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2013 3:29:00 PM (view original):
Seriously, and this will tell me all I need to know about your baseball knowledge, would you take Raines 23 year career or Ichiro's 13 year career if you were the GM of a baseball team?
Raines. He was better.

I love your attempt at the pro-rated WAR argument.

According to Mike's logic, Mike Trout has been more valuable in his less than 2 years of MLB than Ichiro was for his 13 years of MLB.

Trout : 2 years : 19 WAR : 9.5 WAR per year.
Ichiro :13 years : 55 WAR : 4.23 WAR per year.
Mike Trout for the Hall of Fame.
By the way, holy **** Mike Trout is awesome.
8/22/2013 3:52 PM
I also like how Mike not only brought up WAR first, he's using it as the basis for his argument. I thought WAR was a piece of ****?
8/22/2013 3:57 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2013 3:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2013 3:29:00 PM (view original):
Seriously, and this will tell me all I need to know about your baseball knowledge, would you take Raines 23 year career or Ichiro's 13 year career if you were the GM of a baseball team?
Raines. He was better.

I love your attempt at the pro-rated WAR argument.

According to Mike's logic, Mike Trout has been more valuable in his less than 2 years of MLB than Ichiro was for his 13 years of MLB.

Trout : 2 years : 19 WAR : 9.5 WAR per year.
Ichiro :13 years : 55 WAR : 4.23 WAR per year.
Mike Trout for the Hall of Fame.
Sustainability.    Give Trout a few more years and you might have a point.

I used WAR because that's your baby.   Until it doesn't work for you.   What was the other one you were using about a week ago?  CHiPS?






BTW, taking Raines' 23 over Ichiro's 13 is retarded.    I say the dumbest thing you've posted except there's way too much to choose from to narrow it down to one.

8/22/2013 4:01 PM (edited)
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2013 3:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2013 3:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2013 3:29:00 PM (view original):
Seriously, and this will tell me all I need to know about your baseball knowledge, would you take Raines 23 year career or Ichiro's 13 year career if you were the GM of a baseball team?
Raines. He was better.

I love your attempt at the pro-rated WAR argument.

According to Mike's logic, Mike Trout has been more valuable in his less than 2 years of MLB than Ichiro was for his 13 years of MLB.

Trout : 2 years : 19 WAR : 9.5 WAR per year.
Ichiro :13 years : 55 WAR : 4.23 WAR per year.
Mike Trout for the Hall of Fame.
Sustainability.    Give Trout a few more years and you might have a point.

I used WAR because that's your baby.   Until it doesn't work for you.   What was the other one you were using about a week ago?  CHiPS?






BTW, taking Raines' 23 over Ichiro's 13 is retarded.    I say the dumbest thing you've posted except there's way too much to choose from to narrow it down to one.

WAR isn't my baby. It's just one tool to evaluate players.

Based on WAR, Raines was more valuable over the course of his entire career than Ichiro was.

Raines also had a significantly higher OBP, a slightly higher SLG, a significantly better OPS+, and almost twice as many stolen bases with only 40 more caught stealing.

Had Ichiro played in MLB in his early 20's, the nod would probably go to Ichiro. But he didn't.

8/22/2013 4:02 PM
Raines was a waste of space for the last 8 years of his career.      No one with a brain takes his peak years if they know the back end is so horrible over a player who has peak years, a slight decline and a quick retirement. 
8/22/2013 4:17 PM (edited)
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2013 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Raines was a waste of space for the last 8 years of his career.      No one with a brain takes his peak years if they know the back end is so horrible over a player who has peak years, a slight decline and a quick retirement. 
1) You're basing "waste of space" entirely on WAR, specifically dWAR. What was it you said about dWAR the other day? Over the last 8 years of Raines' career he had 2361 PA and hit .279/.379/.411 with a 107 OPS+ (10.1 offensive WAR, BTW).

2) Even with the longer decline, Raines has better rate stats (OBP/SLG/OPS+) over the length of his career. And Ichiro hasn't retired yet, so we really don't know what will happen at the end. 
8/22/2013 4:17 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2013 3:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2013 3:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2013 3:29:00 PM (view original):
Seriously, and this will tell me all I need to know about your baseball knowledge, would you take Raines 23 year career or Ichiro's 13 year career if you were the GM of a baseball team?
Raines. He was better.

I love your attempt at the pro-rated WAR argument.

According to Mike's logic, Mike Trout has been more valuable in his less than 2 years of MLB than Ichiro was for his 13 years of MLB.

Trout : 2 years : 19 WAR : 9.5 WAR per year.
Ichiro :13 years : 55 WAR : 4.23 WAR per year.
Mike Trout for the Hall of Fame.
Sustainability.    Give Trout a few more years and you might have a point.

I used WAR because that's your baby.   Until it doesn't work for you.   What was the other one you were using about a week ago?  CHiPS?






BTW, taking Raines' 23 over Ichiro's 13 is retarded.    I say the dumbest thing you've posted except there's way too much to choose from to narrow it down to one.

Didn't we go through this with BL a year or so ago with his "More!  is Better!" argument?
8/22/2013 4:18 PM

WAR is your go-to stat.   Except when it doesn't work for you.

How does JAWS evaluate Ichiro vs. Raines?

8/22/2013 4:18 PM
WTF? In what way could less WAR be better than more WAR???
8/22/2013 4:20 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2013 4:18:00 PM (view original):

WAR is your go-to stat.   Except when it doesn't work for you.

How does JAWS evaluate Ichiro vs. Raines?

WAR is easy shorthand that I have no problem using. In this case, Raines beats Ichiro in WAR.

You're the one who has a problem with WAR.

I have no idea what JAWS says, I haven't looked. Maybe you can look it up for us.
8/22/2013 4:21 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/22/2013 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2013 3:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2013 3:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/22/2013 3:29:00 PM (view original):
Seriously, and this will tell me all I need to know about your baseball knowledge, would you take Raines 23 year career or Ichiro's 13 year career if you were the GM of a baseball team?
Raines. He was better.

I love your attempt at the pro-rated WAR argument.

According to Mike's logic, Mike Trout has been more valuable in his less than 2 years of MLB than Ichiro was for his 13 years of MLB.

Trout : 2 years : 19 WAR : 9.5 WAR per year.
Ichiro :13 years : 55 WAR : 4.23 WAR per year.
Mike Trout for the Hall of Fame.
Sustainability.    Give Trout a few more years and you might have a point.

I used WAR because that's your baby.   Until it doesn't work for you.   What was the other one you were using about a week ago?  CHiPS?






BTW, taking Raines' 23 over Ichiro's 13 is retarded.    I say the dumbest thing you've posted except there's way too much to choose from to narrow it down to one.

Didn't we go through this with BL a year or so ago with his "More!  is Better!" argument?
I have no idea.   His inconsistent arguments are confusing. 
8/22/2013 4:35 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2013 4:18:00 PM (view original):
WTF? In what way could less WAR be better than more WAR???
Hypothetical:

Who's the better player?  The guy who consistently puts up a WAR of 2.5 per season over a 21 year career, or the guy who consistently puts up a WAR of 5.0 per season over a 10 year career?
8/22/2013 4:38 PM
He's already answered that with Raines23 over Ichiro13. 
8/22/2013 4:43 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/22/2013 4:35:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2013 4:18:00 PM (view original):
WTF? In what way could less WAR be better than more WAR???
Hypothetical:

Who's the better player?  The guy who consistently puts up a WAR of 2.5 per season over a 21 year career, or the guy who consistently puts up a WAR of 5.0 per season over a 10 year career?
1) That's not what happened. Raines didn't put up 2.5 a year (and Ichiro didn't put up 5 per year).

2) Over ten (or 20) years 50 WAR and 52.5 WAR are essentially the same value. So yeah, I'd rather have 10 years of 5 WAR than 21 years of 2.5 WAR. 5 win players are really hard to find.

3) We either use WAR as an acceptable stat or we don't. I'm OK with using it. Are you?


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