What Is A "Fair Share" When It Comes To Taxes? Topic

MikeT23
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The pseudo-rich overextended themselves.   Like most of America, they felt the good times would never stop. 
9/8/2011 8:23 PM
moy23
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Posted by jonas1102 on 9/8/2011 8:09:00 PM (view original):
A.  It takes both a borrower and a lender for there to be a mortgage.  Placing the blame on only one side of the dumbass transaction is foolish.

B.  The largest forclosure rates were in rich areas (Vegas, Miami).  The rich did over extend themselves as well.

C.  $1 Trillion in unpaid mortgages does not lead to an $8 Trillion stock market loss.  The reason for the enormous losses is because of the derivative market.
The rich over extended themselves 'as well' ..... yeah like I said everyone should get a tax hike... not just the rich.

I wouldn't simply say the losses are because of the derivative market .... more so the fed allowing brokerage firms to leverage themselves up to 35:1, brokerage firms actually leveraging that much, and consumers biting off more than they can chew. That's 3 parts blame... the fed, the financials, and yes the American People.
9/8/2011 8:27 PM (edited)
jonas1102
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Psuedo rich, yes.  They're probably not rich anymore.
 
Over leveraged firms, absofreakinlutely.


I just hate when people try to simplify what happened down to those poor people should have taken mortgages they couldn't afford and we would have been just fine.

9/8/2011 8:48 PM (edited)
MikeT23
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They weren't rich then.   They had money with no idea how to sustain it.    About like 90% of all professional athletes.
9/8/2011 8:54 PM
antonsirius
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Posted by moy23 on 9/8/2011 6:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by antonsirius on 9/8/2011 6:09:00 PM (view original):
Start what, fixing the expenditures problem? I agree, that is the place to start. That wasn't what we were discussing though.
To start getting the deficit under control. And once tax payers see the government is being fiscally responsible they may not mind paying higher taxes as much as they do now. Paying taxes right now feels like giving money to a junkie.... you know its going to be squandered in the end.

I guess the difference in our theories are you like rhetoric (More truthful politicians) .... I like execution. ' Show' the American people you are serious about fiscal responsibility and they will be fine paying more in taxes imo.
I'm not talking about politicians being truthful moy. What I'm talking about is the opposite of rhetoric, frankly.
9/8/2011 9:38 PM
silentpadna
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Posted by jonas1102 on 9/8/2011 8:48:00 PM (view original):

Psuedo rich, yes.  They're probably not rich anymore.
 
Over leveraged firms, absofreakinlutely.


I just hate when people try to simplify what happened down to those poor people should have taken mortgages they couldn't afford and we would have been just fine.

As one of those "heartless b@stards" who points the finger at the underqualified borrowers, it's very important to point out the fact that they were nudged by the lenders, who were nudged by politicians and every one of those groups (collectively) had their head in the sand.  So I point my finger at all of them really.  But I would never leave out those who borrow money without taking the time or effort to understand what borrowing money even means.

Yes, there were innocent borrowers who probably didn't know better.  My general position on that is that financial education in this country is sorely lacking.  The concepts are not that difficult, but it benefits those with knowledge to withhold it from those who don't have it.  There is blame all across multiple spectrums (politically, educationally, and in business) in that process.

For me personally, the only reason I have clue about economics and personal finance is because I took an interest in it.  No one owes me that knowledge.  I can't for the life of me understand why people would turn away from learning anything as important as that because its "seems too complicated".

9/8/2011 9:48 PM
jonas1102
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The dumbass borrowers were a symptom, not the problem.  If the mortgage companies couldn't sell off the ****** loans as CDOs, they don't make the loans.
9/8/2011 10:23 PM
moy23
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Posted by jonas1102 on 9/8/2011 10:23:00 PM (view original):
The dumbass borrowers were a symptom, not the problem.  If the mortgage companies couldn't sell off the ****** loans as CDOs, they don't make the loans.
That's got to be the dumbest thing I've heard on some time. Yeah - borrowers have no blame at all. Just like drive by shooters are the symptom of gun manufacturers..... And drunk drivers are the symptom of liquor distributors.

The banks did not FORCE anyone to sign those mortgage contracts. Without those signed contracts CDOs don't exist.

Those dumbass borrowers are just as much at fault for signing a contract they had no business signing (the largest one they will ever sign in their lives) as the banks are at fault for no doc lending. Just because someone 'can' get a loan does not mean it's a good idea.... I just bought a home for 200k less than I was pre-approved for.... why? It was the right thing to do if I plan to have any money left over for anything else in my life.
9/8/2011 11:08 PM
crazystengel
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Furthermore, when a guy gets mugged in a bad part of town, I blame him as much as the mugger.  Dumbass should have educated himself about that part of town before going for a walk there.  

Lock 'em both up!
9/8/2011 11:13 PM
antonsirius
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No, moy, it's not dumb. By the end of the cycle CDO construction was driving the mortgage business, not the other way around. It's why so many corners were being cut on the paperwork, and why so many mortgages proved to be fraudulent after the fact - they existed solely to be grist for the derivatives mill. Nobody gave a **** whether the borrowers' obligations were met or not, because that money was peanuts compared to the money that was being made on the CDOs based on those obligations.
9/8/2011 11:14 PM
moy23
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I'm not even saying derivatives didn't play a part, they did.... they made it easy for the banks to pass on the risk to investors. But it took three to tango here.... the fed, the banks, and the borrowers.
9/8/2011 11:17 PM
moy23
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Posted by antonsirius on 9/8/2011 11:14:00 PM (view original):
No, moy, it's not dumb. By the end of the cycle CDO construction was driving the mortgage business, not the other way around. It's why so many corners were being cut on the paperwork, and why so many mortgages proved to be fraudulent after the fact - they existed solely to be grist for the derivatives mill. Nobody gave a **** whether the borrowers' obligations were met or not, because that money was peanuts compared to the money that was being made on the CDOs based on those obligations.
Yeah yeah yeah..... and companies incentivised employees to sell subprime and make short term profits while deferring risks.... yada yada yada......

If I walk onto a used car lot I am not OBLIGATED to go home with a new used car no matter how much they will give me or how pushy the salesman is. Its a big purchase.... a home..... the biggest purchase one will ever make in their lives.... BE FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE!!! I know dems have a hard time wrapping their brains around this concept but give it a try.
9/8/2011 11:30 PM
moy23
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Posted by jonas1102 on 9/8/2011 10:23:00 PM (view original):
The dumbass borrowers were a symptom, not the problem.  If the mortgage companies couldn't sell off the ****** loans as CDOs, they don't make the loans.
I was thinking about this last night.

By that logic.... Couldn't it be said the financials investing in CDOs so heavily was the symptom of the fed allowing them to leverage themselves up to 35:1? Without that leverage they couldn't invest so heavily in CDOs. Its not the banks fault they could borrow so much just like its not the homeowners fault they could borrow so much, right?

Its actually infuriating you guys absolve borrowers from any kind of fiscal responsibility ..... its horrifying.
9/9/2011 7:31 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by jonas1102 on 9/8/2011 10:23:00 PM (view original):
The dumbass borrowers were a symptom, not the problem.  If the mortgage companies couldn't sell off the ****** loans as CDOs, they don't make the loans.
Wow.  I guess "personal responsibility" doesn't play much of a role in your life. 
9/9/2011 8:06 AM
antonsirius
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They were mostly sold to hedge funds and such (especially internationally, as they were suckers right up until the bitter end), not investing in CDOs themselves. It's one of the reasons why Goldman Sachs is under the most scrutiny - they were selling CDOs on the one hand, then buying insurance on them at ludicrous rates (because they were, after all, AAA rated and AIG therefore treated them as rock solid) and betting against their default.

Nobody is absolving the original borrowers of anything (except in cases of outright fraud on the lender's part, of which there are many). But they were just the nail by which the kingdom was lost. Goldman Sachs and that lot were the rider.
9/9/2011 8:09 AM
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