All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Tim Tebow
3/23/2012 2:11 PM
eschwartz67
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Look, Mike.    My original post was saying that Jet fans are not upset with the Tebow signing as an isolated incident.  It is a case of continuing ineptitude.  This next part is what I was trying to explain.....

THE JETS ARE A TERRIBLY RUN FRANCHISE.  WHEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO DRAFT PLAYERS AT POSITIONS THAT THEY NEED, THEY CONTINUALLY BYPASS PLAYERS OF HOF CALIBER, AND DRAFT BUSTS OR IN THE CASE OF AL TOON, SERVICEABLE PLAYERS.  IN ADDITION, RATHER THAN TRADE AND FILL NEEDS, THE JETS HAVE BEEN MORE CONCERNED WITH MAKING A SPLASH IN THE MEDIA.  

You said that what happened wasn't the Jets passing on players that they thought were potential HOFers.  Thats 100% true. However, the Jets did not even think that Marino/Rice/Smith were the best available at their position at that point in the draft, but the very next team that needed that position did think that about them.  The Jets were wrong each time.

What happened was the Jets needed a WR, took Lam Jones and left Art Monk for the Redskins 11 spots later.  The Jets needed a WR again because of that dismal pick, and took Al Toon leaving Jerry Rice for the Niners 7 spots later.   The Jets needed a QB and took Ken O'Brien leaving Dan Marino for the Dolphins 2 picks later.  The Jets needed a RB, and took Blair Thomas leaving Emmitt Smith for the Cowboys 10 picks later.


3/23/2012 2:16 PM
AlCheez
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Did everyone else think those guys were the best available players at their position at the time?  That's Mike's point.  It's really only evidence of ineptitude if the Jets were going against the prevailing wisdom with those picks.  For all we know, if you'd flipped the picking teams at that time, the teams that wound up with Marino/Smith/Rice get the Jets crap and the Jets look like one of the greatest organizations ever.

3/23/2012 2:39 PM
MikeT23
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Look, E.  When you say "He's not as valuable as a ping pong ball", you're not talking about the 1985 draft.  You're talking about one very specific player.   Don't try to weasel out of your dumbassery.  I know you don't like Tebow as a QB.   Fine, I get that.   However, adding him does not indicate ineptitude.   It indicates that they weren't enamored with potential HOFers Drew Stanton and Greg McIlroy as back-ups to Mark Sanchez.    If you want to say Stanton/McIlroy are better options than Tebow, I'll question your football acumen.

As for the draft picks, EVERY team can tell the same story.   Everyone has passed on future HOFers.    Everyone has a Ryan Leaf pick.   The Jets' mistakes may be near and dear to your heart but they are not isolated incidences.   Tim Couch was #1 overall.   Cincy missed on about 20 consecutive drafts.   Detroit drafted WR first half a dozen times before hitting on Johnson.  ******* Oakland and linemen.   Eli Manning wouldn't even play for SD.  Alex Smith before Aaron Rodgers.  Favre by ATL.  Brady in the 6th round.  Moss skipped by 20+ teams.    I bet I could look at every NFL draft since the beginning of time and say "Damn.  They f'd that one up."
3/23/2012 2:52 PM
AlCheez
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Like I said, it's really about what everyone else saw.  If E could prove to me that at the time, everyone thought Smith was the superior back and the Jets took Thomas anyhow, that's one thing.   But if most/all saw Thomas as the better back coming out of college, then it's not ineptitude.   It goes back to what stine said.  If 20 years from now Andrew Luck and RGIII are busts and some other later drafted QB is a HOF, sure, it'll look bad in hindsight, but the Colts/Redskins would have made the same "mistakes" that everyone else would have made in their position this year.
3/23/2012 3:13 PM
MikeT23
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I'll use 2001 as the example.   Vick was considered the only Day 1 QB on the board.   ATL took him first.  6 years later,  I don't think anyone would have said "Stupid pick."   Then that blew-up at about the same time Brees was going to New Orleans.   Brees was considered a decent prospect but lacked the size/arm strength to be a legit NFL star before the draft.    Atlanta looked pretty stupid about midway thru the 2007 season.
3/23/2012 3:23 PM
AlCheez
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Posted by eschwartz67 on 3/23/2012 2:12:00 PM (view original):
Look, Mike.    My original post was saying that Jet fans are not upset with the Tebow signing as an isolated incident.  It is a case of continuing ineptitude.  This next part is what I was trying to explain.....

THE JETS ARE A TERRIBLY RUN FRANCHISE.  WHEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO DRAFT PLAYERS AT POSITIONS THAT THEY NEED, THEY CONTINUALLY BYPASS PLAYERS OF HOF CALIBER, AND DRAFT BUSTS OR IN THE CASE OF AL TOON, SERVICEABLE PLAYERS.  IN ADDITION, RATHER THAN TRADE AND FILL NEEDS, THE JETS HAVE BEEN MORE CONCERNED WITH MAKING A SPLASH IN THE MEDIA.  

You said that what happened wasn't the Jets passing on players that they thought were potential HOFers.  Thats 100% true. However, the Jets did not even think that Marino/Rice/Smith were the best available at their position at that point in the draft, but the very next team that needed that position did think that about them.  The Jets were wrong each time.

What happened was the Jets needed a WR, took Lam Jones and left Art Monk for the Redskins 11 spots later.  The Jets needed a WR again because of that dismal pick, and took Al Toon leaving Jerry Rice for the Niners 7 spots later.   The Jets needed a QB and took Ken O'Brien leaving Dan Marino for the Dolphins 2 picks later.  The Jets needed a RB, and took Blair Thomas leaving Emmitt Smith for the Cowboys 10 picks later.


Missed the 3rd paragraph the first time through, and that's where you argument breaks down.  How do you know the Cowboys didn't have Thomas rated more highly than Smith, or that the Dolphins didn't like O'Brien better than Marino, or that the 49ers wouldn't have preferred Toon to Rice given the opportunity?  You don't, because those players were off the board when those teams picked.

You argument basically says this:  if two teams have players A and B both ranked first and second on their draft board, and B ends up in the HOF while A busts out, the team that drafted first was inept and the team that drafted second was shrewd, when really the team that drafted second was really just pretty fortunate.
3/23/2012 3:51 PM
MikeT23
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I recall Toon being referred to as the next "Art Monk".   No idea of that was intended to be a compliment or not.   I don't recall anyone mentioning Jerry Rice.  He wasn't exceptionally big or fast and from a small college.

Thomas went to Penn State and Smith to Florida.   I don't recall either of them being referred to as "can't miss".

As far as Marino, I recall that QB class being ranked all over the place after Elway.   Kelly, O'Brien, Blackledge, Eason and Marino.  I can't remember any of them being declared "sure things" other than Elway.  

3/23/2012 4:04 PM
toddcommish
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Walsh wanted Toon and/or Eddie Brown, but he knew they wouldn't fall to him.  So he made a backup plan to get Rice.

Walsh also wanted Steve Fuller and Phil Simms in 1979.  Instead, he drafted a skinny twerp from Notre Dame when Simms and Fuller went earlier.
 

3/23/2012 4:07 PM
toddcommish
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And none of those Jets picks mentioned (Toon, Thomas, well, maybe O'Brien) were ripped at the time.

Not like when the Colts took Trev Alberts and Mel Kiper called them idiots for not drafting Trent Dilfer.
3/23/2012 4:31 PM
dmurphy104
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Before last year the Jets made two straight AFC championship games. Any AFC franchise other than the Patriots, Colts and Steelers would be happy to have had that success. As a Browns fan I would kill just to get back to the playoffs.
3/23/2012 4:37 PM
eschwartz67
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Mike...  Marino was poised to go right alongside Kelly & Elway.  Then he had a minor knee injury in his senior season that made him fall.  But when forced to pick 24th, the Jets should have been fortunate to pick Marino.  When they picked Ken O'Brien from Cal-Davis, no fan had ever heard of him.  Granted in 1983, the NFL draft was not as big as it is now by a long shot.  But EVERY Jets fan was psyched because we thought we were getting Marino.  Especially when the commissioner started his sentence by saying "With the 24th pick in the NFL Draft, the NY Jets select quarterback......"  Unfortunately the ending was Ken O'Brien from the University of California-Davis.
3/23/2012 5:33 PM
toddcommish
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It's not like Ken O'Brien was terrible, y'know.  And the whole reason Marino succeeded was because Don Shula was smart enough to build the entire offense around Marino and the Marks.  Ken O'Brien actually had some good statistical years (certainly more than Todd Blackledge or Tony Eason).  Do you honestly think that Dan Marino would have been DAN ******* MARINO if the Jets had drafted him? 
3/23/2012 5:37 PM
toddcommish
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Trading for Tebow isn't a terrible move, especially when it costs them virtually nothing.  He's a good insurance policy if Sanchez gets hurt or continues to regress or simply pouts.  He puts butts in the seats and sells jerseys and raises local ratings (not small considerations).

In fact, I'd be ****** if my hometown team didn't at least consider shipping a 4th round pick for probably the best single-wing, "wildcat" player in football.
3/23/2012 7:53 PM
MikeT23
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I'm not sure there was such a thing as "minor knee injury" back in 1985.  Nonetheless, KO'b was sacked about 3.5 times per game in his career with the Jets.  Marino was sacked just over once per game.  Maybe some of that is KO'bs fault.  Maybe the Jets O-line sucked balls.   Nonetheless, Marino would not have been a happy man getting hit that often.
3/23/2012 11:47 PM
livemike
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Being referred to as "the next Art Monk" definitely a compliment...
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