8/23/2013 6:38 PM
OK, what I'm trying to say is they don't believe that the "supplements" really did anything that they couldn't have accomplished on their own.    The mind is a terrible thing to waste as they used to say.    If a strong-willed person believes "This is all me, all me", it's going to be hard to convince them it isn't.    The Placebo Effect, essentially. 
8/23/2013 6:43 PM
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter to me whether or not Braun and Clemens believed the steroids helped, they knew what they were taking and are responsible for what goes into their bodies.
8/23/2013 6:46 PM
I've lost track of what we're arguing about but, if they don't believe they helped, it a short step to "I didn't do anything wrong" which is another short step to "I didn't take anything." 
8/23/2013 6:47 PM
I should have added "illegal" to that last sentence.
8/23/2013 6:48 PM
But they did take it, and it was against the rules, and it might have helped them. Regardless of what they believed.
8/23/2013 6:55 PM
Again, they're taking short steps in their mind, which I think we agree is strong-willed, to make it where they don't believe they did anything wrong.   Which translates to "nothing illegal".    I don't think it's far-fetched.    Otherwise, there's no way Braun and Clemens can be so adamant, especially Clemens, that they took nothing illegal. 
8/23/2013 7:06 PM
Sure, I get that.

I guess we're going past each other on this a little bit. Assuming that is true, it doesn't change anything for me. It doesn't excuse the behavior.
8/23/2013 7:08 PM
I don't particularly care about the behavior.   Steroids, or PEDs in general, don't turn you into Superman.   They allow you to work harder because you recover faster.   Working harder seems like a good thing to me.
8/23/2013 7:20 PM
OK. I don't have any sort of moral objection to steroids. I think Bonds/Clemens/Arod/Manny should all be in the hall of fame. It also wouldn't upset me if we found out that Griffey Jr or Jeter or Pujols used PEDs.

But they are against the rules and if you get caught you deserve the 50 game suspension and "not believing" that PEDs helped doesn't change that.

8/24/2013 12:36 PM
Ya, I think that's what hurt McGwire. I really believe he'd be getting more HOF votes now if he hadn't said "Yes, I took steroids - but they didn't help me. I had a God-given ability to hit homeruns." As Mike said, that's delusional, because the steroids don't help with the power, they help with health and recovery, and even McGwire admitted they helped him stay on the field more often than not. But his confession did seem to try and minimize the effect they had on his career.
8/24/2013 3:49 PM
OK, I'll try this another way.   I doubt ballplayers are chemists.   If they buy a bottle that reads Deca Durabolin, they may assume it's steroids.   However, they have no idea because they're not chemists.   Once they convince themselves that their hard work is what elevated their game, it's no giant leap for them to believe that bottle contained mineral oil. 
8/24/2013 5:52 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/24/2013 3:49:00 PM (view original):
OK, I'll try this another way.   I doubt ballplayers are chemists.   If they buy a bottle that reads Deca Durabolin, they may assume it's steroids.   However, they have no idea because they're not chemists.   Once they convince themselves that their hard work is what elevated their game, it's no giant leap for them to believe that bottle contained mineral oil. 
In a genuinely non-starky way, so what? Does it matter if the player did or did not delude himself?
8/24/2013 9:28 PM
In a genuinely, non-starky way, I'm trying to explain to you why players THINK they didn't do anything wrong.

Do you REALLY not understand?

I get when you want to argue about ****, I'm just unsure if you don't understand in this case.
8/24/2013 10:17 PM
What I'm saying is, who cares if a player is delusional? What difference does it make? Should we excuse the behavior? Pretend that it didnt happen?
8/25/2013 8:24 AM
Read back a few pages.  Maybe you'll understand what I'm saying.   Probably not but give it a shot.
of 15

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

Popular on WhatIfSports site: Baseball Simulation | College Basketball Game | College Football Game | Online Baseball Game | Hockey Simulation | NFL Picks | College Football Picks | Sports Games

© 1999-2014 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.