6/20/2012 4:46 PM
He's no Cap Anson, that's for sure.
6/20/2012 7:13 PM
see mike, no more redlines.
6/20/2012 7:41 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/20/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
You're missing the point.  You refused to pay me some money after a long business relationship.   I've seen you in the company of 12 year olds and, well, that just seems odd to me, MichaelJackson483.   I'm a little ****** so I say you raped a 12 y/o.   You mentioned your friendship with a 12 year old to a friend, MichaelJackson483.    He kind of remembers something, maybe you raped a 12 y/o, maybe you showed them your peepee, he's not real sure but sure enough to not want to cover up something if you did it. 

As for what Clemens did or didn't do, or what he believes, I go back to repeating a story long enough to believe it's true.   There's enough truth in it to convince yourself that it's exactly what happened.   I'm sure that Clemens didn't buy 'roids.   His trainer did.    If McNamee didn't tell him exactly what he was injecting, if he injected anything other than B12, there's no reason for Clemens to believe it was 'roids unless he wanted to believe.  Quite honestly, and I'm sure we're all guilty of it in some way, not knowing everything gives us plausible deniability.
Why are you equating Michael Jackson to child rape?

He went to court, was found innocent of all charges, and the people that accused him were all trying to make a buck off of the process.

What more did he have to do for you to prove innocence?
6/20/2012 7:52 PM
Posted by jrd_x on 6/20/2012 7:13:00 PM (view original):
see mike, no more redlines.
You do realize that I can go back and do it all over again, right?

Or just start doing it again, right?
6/20/2012 7:53 PM
Posted by stinenavy on 6/20/2012 7:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/20/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
You're missing the point.  You refused to pay me some money after a long business relationship.   I've seen you in the company of 12 year olds and, well, that just seems odd to me, MichaelJackson483.   I'm a little ****** so I say you raped a 12 y/o.   You mentioned your friendship with a 12 year old to a friend, MichaelJackson483.    He kind of remembers something, maybe you raped a 12 y/o, maybe you showed them your peepee, he's not real sure but sure enough to not want to cover up something if you did it. 

As for what Clemens did or didn't do, or what he believes, I go back to repeating a story long enough to believe it's true.   There's enough truth in it to convince yourself that it's exactly what happened.   I'm sure that Clemens didn't buy 'roids.   His trainer did.    If McNamee didn't tell him exactly what he was injecting, if he injected anything other than B12, there's no reason for Clemens to believe it was 'roids unless he wanted to believe.  Quite honestly, and I'm sure we're all guilty of it in some way, not knowing everything gives us plausible deniability.
Why are you equating Michael Jackson to child rape?

He went to court, was found innocent of all charges, and the people that accused him were all trying to make a buck off of the process.

What more did he have to do for you to prove innocence?
Seemed appropriate.   After all, he did settle with one of the accusers.  10m, I think.    Clemens hasn't settled with anyone.   If anything, he's been surly about the whole thing.   If he wouldn't be arrested, he'd be at McNamee's house tonight and beat his *** in front of his kids.
6/20/2012 10:30 PM
did Rocket know what he was doing was wrong?
6/20/2012 10:41 PM
Posted by nanu on 6/20/2012 10:30:00 PM (view original):
did Rocket know what he was doing was wrong?
What do you mean?  Striking out batters?  Winning games?  Collecting Cy Young Awards?  No, I don't think he knew those things were wrong. 
6/20/2012 10:47 PM
Who defines wrong?   I have no problem whatsoever with PED use.
6/21/2012 2:46 AM
Posted by jrd_x on 6/20/2012 2:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/20/2012 12:35:00 PM (view original):
I mentioned a theory a few years ago after reading "The Rocket that fell to earth".

I think he was working hard, just like always, and not getting the same results.
He tried something that allowed him to work harder(which is really all 'roids do).
After awhile, he began to believe that the lack of previous results was a mental issue.   That maybe he wasn't pushing himself hard enough.
Over time, he believes that what he took was nothing more than a placebo, or a B-12 shot, and that the results were simply him busting his ***.

Just another version of repeating the same lie so many times that you begin to believe it's the truth.    So I believe he believes that he took nothing that helped him physically.  He just needed the mental boost. 
I guess if I said something this stupid ^, I'd want to redline responses too.

Me: Clemens didn't know he took steroids?
Mike: He took them, but then deluded himself into believing they were a placebo
Me: ???
I actually buy this somewhat.
6/21/2012 7:58 AM
Read the book.   You'll buy it more. 
6/21/2012 8:28 AM
Maybe it's along the lines of taking a multivitamin every day. Does it matter? Do you feel any different? Am I healthier? Maybe I get to the point where you think it doesn't effect anything, yet I keep taking them. It's an interesting idea.
6/21/2012 8:45 AM

Clemens was a fat kid.   He started working hard and became a great pitcher at every level.  
None of us understand how much he did to be the best at his profession for a period of time.   Nonetheless, from the book, I gathered that Clemens believes hard work can overcome limitations.  However, Father Time always wins.  So he took some supplements(maybe legal, maybe illegal).  He was able to work harder(which, as I said, is what legal/illegal supplements do) and get back to where he was.   It's not inconceivable that he convinced himself that he was becoming a lazy, complacent fat kid again and that he needed a kick in the *** to get his mental focus back.   The placebo effect is real.   And I can see Clemens believing that what he was taking did nothing but convince him he could work harder.    If he and McNamee never specifically discussed steroids or HGH, he could create enough doubt in his mind to believe he was taking B12.

6/21/2012 9:10 AM
The idea that he didn't know what he was taking for years and years? I don't believe. I'm not letting anyone inject anything into me without knowing what it is first, regardless of who they are or how much I trust them.  I would assume this goes for Clemens too.  If you're as big a competitor as he is, you want to control every aspect of what you're doing, to have as much information as possible.  I think it's highly unlikely he trusted B-Mac to inject whatever the hell he wanted into him.  And I doubt B-Mac lied to him about what he was injecting if he wanted to keep working with him.
6/21/2012 9:45 AM
Plausible deniability.   It's not a foreign concept. 

As for what we would/wouldn't do, it has no relevance.  We weren't in his situation.
6/21/2012 9:48 AM
FWIW, Clemens does not strike me as a MENSA member.

McNamee:  OK, Roger, I'm going to change your injections.    I'm gonna start using...
Clemens:  Goddammit, Brian, I don't give a **** about the details.   Will it help me be better?
McNamee:  Yeah, it probably will.   But you need to know...
Clemens:  Don't ******* tell me what I need to know.  I need to know if it wil help me regain my fastball.  You said it would.  That's what the **** I need to know.  Now do it.
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