All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > A-Rod: Next Yankee SS?
9/6/2013 9:05 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 9/6/2013 5:58:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/5/2013 11:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by winner77 on 9/5/2013 10:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/5/2013 9:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by winner77 on 9/5/2013 5:34:00 PM (view original):
There are guys throughout history who had great power, but were not huge.  Mays, Aaron, Ted Williams, Griffey.....they are the TRUE home run hitters.  When you look at what McGwire did, and how he changed his body so much, it's obvious he was going to mis-hit balls and STILL get them over the fence.  Same with Sosa.  Same with Bonds. 
Mays and Aaron already admitted to using PEDs. I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that Griffey used steroids.
Are we lumping greenies in with steroids now?
Performance enhancing illegal/prescription drugs. Yep, we are.
Let's also lump in other stimulants, such as caffeine.

Coffee = PED?
Is coffee an illegal or banned prescription drug? No? Oh ok, you're an idiot.
9/6/2013 11:52 AM (edited)
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/6/2013 6:48:00 AM (view original):
Posted by winner77 on 9/5/2013 10:41:00 PM (view original):
MAYO CLINIC - See Below - This is only part of the article.  Does this count as research?

The Mayo Clinic website seems to incorporate such studies where it states that "increase in muscle" caused by HGH "doesn't translate into increased strength."

This information, none of which is new, is a great surprise to me and seems to be under-reported. It suggests that many athletes are so determined to treat their bodies with substances or practices that promise them competitive advantage that they are easily duped by empty nostrums and medical charlatans who offer them not only useless hormone supplements but also such dubious techniques as "blood-spinning."

The connection between steroid-use and bodily harm has been well-observed. The performance-boost that many athletes have achieved with their help has been followed by various injuries and sometimes career-ending physical breakdowns. (Can anyone tell me where Carlos Delgado has gone since he almost single-handedly thrust the Mets into the 2008 National League East pennant race?) And now it appears that HGH can also cause harm without ever having offered the same benefit as steroids. The possible side-effects mentioned by the Mayo Clinic are not only joint and muscle pain but also swelling of the limbs, male breast-enlargement and possible contributions to diabetes and heart disease.



So the Mayo Clinic is saying that an increase in muscle mass(which would lead to more of your all-important SIZE) doesn't create more strength?


Does that sound right to anyone?
Fact is, the studies they have done state that HGH is just as harmful for the body as roids, but you simply don't get the strength benefit that roids provide.  I am an IT guy, not a doctor.  If you want to argue with the MAYO clinic Dr. Mike, you go right ahead.  Facts are facts.  HGH probably gives these guys a boost like "wow, I feel really good today!" but does not provide the pure muscle mass that roids do.

You quibble about something so obvious.  I say size and strength help big time with power, so you post a photo of an obese sumo wrestler to make a point.  But, that makes no sense considering the guys we are talking about were like 7% body fat and were 250-265 pounds of MUSCLE.  We don't see those popeye armed guys anymore. 

9/6/2013 12:15 PM (edited)
Here is yet another article from steroid.com (yes, such a site actually exists)

Now for some really interesting stuff:

Although Human Growth Hormone can easily produce very nice, high quality weight and muscle gains, its a very poor compound for inducing strength gains(2)(3)(4). Thats very counterintuitive, and certainly many strength athletes have experienced great results in strength as well as muscle size and fat loss from Human Growth Hormone. Generally, many studies have focused on Human Growth Hormone vs. Human Growth Hormone and exercise, and without the exercise LBM increases but not usually maximum voluntary strength output. It should also be noted that most athletes utilizing Human Growth Hormone are using it in a "cocktail" with (at least) anabolic steroids, and usually with IGF, thyroid meds, and other goodies such as an Aromatase Inhibitor.


So, to me....these studies basically state that you can take anabolic steroids and hardly work out, and you will get bigger and stronger from it.  Now, if you consider how much weightlifting the baseball roiders were doing, combined with the roids, they were getting huge and increasing their strength big time.  HGH seems to help with recovery more than it does with strength.  This article says these athletes are taking a cocktail of HGH and roids, but we are not hearing about these guys testing positive for steroids. 
9/6/2013 12:15 PM
It's not a "strength benefit".   It's a recovery benefit which allows you to work harder and, in turn, build more muscle/strength.     As I understand it, you will get some minor muscle gain by simply taking HGH but, if you want to hulk up, you have to work out.

Nonetheless, both HGH and steroids are used to increase tissue re-growth.   That's what increases size/strength.

9/6/2013 12:19 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/6/2013 12:15:00 PM (view original):
It's not a "strength benefit".   It's a recovery benefit which allows you to work harder and, in turn, build more muscle/strength.     As I understand it, you will get some minor muscle gain by simply taking HGH but, if you want to hulk up, you have to work out.

Nonetheless, both HGH and steroids are used to increase tissue re-growth.   That's what increases size/strength.

You told me to research, and I did.  I find a lot of articles that state HGH simply does not improve strength.  I point out that gigantic roid guys have gone the way of the dodo, so we don't see the 65-70 home run silliness and giant guys hitting pop ups that clear the fence by 15 feet. 
9/6/2013 12:20 PM
Ugh.   Because of your edit, I think I need to explain the entire purpose of working out.

You're tearing muscle tissue.   Every time you stress your muscles, you're breaking them down not building them up.    However, once you stop lifting, the healing process begins.  Your body "sees" the torn tissue and begins to repair it.   Making it better in order to handle the workload the next time(essentially to keep you healthy).   So your muscles get bigger.    HGH and 'roids speed the process. 
9/6/2013 12:27 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/6/2013 12:20:00 PM (view original):
Ugh.   Because of your edit, I think I need to explain the entire purpose of working out.

You're tearing muscle tissue.   Every time you stress your muscles, you're breaking them down not building them up.    However, once you stop lifting, the healing process begins.  Your body "sees" the torn tissue and begins to repair it.   Making it better in order to handle the workload the next time(essentially to keep you healthy).   So your muscles get bigger.    HGH and 'roids speed the process. 
Right, I think HGH helps, but not nearly as much as what steroids do.  Not even remotely close, especially when you read the research these clinics have done.  I mean, they are flat out stating that HGH causes a lot of the same horrible health issues as roids, but you don't get the same muscle strength benefits.

Personally, I still think HGH is cheating.  It's night and day though compared to what you get when you take anabolics.

9/6/2013 12:51 PM
It really isn't, at least not from a strength standpoint.    A repaired muscle is a repaired muscle.   The difference between the two is water.   You'll retain more water when using roids.   HGH is more lean muscle    That's why the 'roided up bodybuilders have as many health issues with diuretics as the do with 'roids.  They have to remove the water to get the lean, ripped look and the often do it too quickly. 
9/19/2013 12:06 AM (edited)
Posted by winner77 on 9/5/2013 5:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by lad_buck on 9/1/2013 9:01:00 PM (view original):
sadaharu oh retired from managing japanese professional baseball teams in 2008, for 19 seasons, with a career winning % of .540. he is 73 yrs. old. a left-handed first-baseman, who played only 2 games in the outfield, in 22 seasons.
His record of 55 home runs has been challenged by some ALL TIME greats.  Tuffy Rhodes!  Kevin Bass!  Alex Cabrera!!!

Sigh, gimmie a break with the Oh crap.

...from... <SB NATION>

The  San Francisco Giants  have toyed with the idea of acquiring new Japan 
home run king Wladimir Balentien, this offseason, according to reports by Henry
Schulman
 of the San Francisco Chronicle.

Schulman's exact words are, "mused about the possibility of acquiring," so it's not
as though they are staying up at night trying to work something out, but it is more
than nothing. Much of the discussions are still theoretical at the moment. Giants
GM Brian Sabean has not been a part of the musing, per Schulman.

A factor that could work in the Giants favor, ---if they do decide to pursue Balentien---,
is his close relationship with hitting coach Hensley Meulens, who's known the slugger
for many years and also coached him on the Netherlands' World Baseball Clasic team
in the spring. Meulens said that he and Balentien text every day, & that he had recently
expressed interest in returning to Major League Baseball:

"He wants to come back," Meulens said. "That is what he told me 2 or 3
weeks ago. His dream is to come back and play in the major-leagues..."

The biggest obstacle between Balentien and an MLB renaissance is his contract with
the Yakult Swallows, which runs through the 2015 season. MLB and NPB have very
strict guidelines set up for the exchange of free agents (see: posting fee) and at times
marginal players have had their contracts sold to Japanese baseball clubs.

The process of trading a potentially coveted player like Wladimir Balentien, back to
the big leagues is uncharted territoryMeulens added that the club has talked about
the situation, but that no one knows how to get around Balentien's contract.

Balentien broke Sadaharu Oh's long-standing, single-season, NPB home run record
over the weekend, by smashing his 56th and 57th big flies of the year, on Sunday.

The right-handed slugger, who had never had much luck
 stateside, has destroyed
opposing pitching in his 3 years in Japanese baseball
. He's hit a total of 119 home
runs in just over 350 games
.

(on a sidenote, where wis describes the normalization as it relates to carl yastrzemski's season, versus, the rest
of the league that particular year, it should be noted that the seasons of rhodes, bass, cabrera, and balentien, do
not even come close to those overwhelming numbers put up by sadaharu oh, when comparing him to total league
averages of his time, in japanese baseball.)

9/19/2013 12:10 AM (edited)
these are his stats, after 107 games this season. from baseball-reference.com.

WLADIMIR  BALENTIEN, Yakult Swallows
 
Age  G   PA   AB   R    H   2B  3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO  BA   OBP  SLG   OPS   TB   GDP HBP SH SF  IBB
 
28  107 461 370 83 126 16   0   53 114  0 -  0   87  84 .341 .464  .814  1.278  301     9      1      0    3    8
 
9/19/2013 3:03 AM
not sure if this has been mentioned yet but the japanesse pretty much came out and said they are using doctored balls that travel further.
9/19/2013 11:16 PM (edited)
Posted by iverbure on 9/19/2013 3:03:00 AM (view original):
not sure if this has been mentioned yet but the japanesse pretty much came out and said they are using doctored balls that travel further.
if there was such a thing as a brainiac-and-a-half, then this would be brilliant. a definite three a.m. comment, where we are led to believe that  japan decides to dishonor one of their national treasures, sadaharu oh, by making baseballs go farther?

shouldn't have hideo, and yu, and other japanese pitchers been notified that the balls they were pitching would go farther off the bat? that u.s. mlb scouts found all of  these japanese pitchers that would make the big leagues, even after japanese batters hit baseballs farther than american-haiti baseballs?

the above article was posted to show the extremes in normalizing baseball sluggers to the rest of a leagues batter stats. the fifty-seven homers out-distance the 2nd place homerun finisher, who was barely in the mid-thirties with his homerun totals. all that with baseballs made to go further? what bonds and arod did was not the same thing, when this era produces twenty other sluggers doing the same thing.

sosa and his corked bat, and your implication that japanese batters benefit from balls that go farther, just makes no justifiable sense, whatsoever.

what sadaharu oh did was so unique a feat, that across-the-board when reviewing any major league, or japanese, seasons, no batter has achieved the separation from the rest of his batting peers as largely and definitively as sadaharu oh. no season has ever produced such a monumental chasm in median composite averages, from the slugger at the top. not even ruth.

u are making a rather large assumption that  japanese people in charge would actually do something as dumb as to make baseballs go farther. especially in a game so dominated by pitching. that it is quite telling, and i hope u were able to sleep it off. take a couple days rest, while u are at it. 
9/20/2013 7:51 AM
By the way, just because there is a huge statistical separation between a player and his contemporaries doesn't in any way mean that the player is better than (or even comparable to) a completely different set of players. It is precisely when competition is more uneven that outliers like that appear.

This is the main reason why there were so many .400 BA seasons in early baseball and we haven't seen one in over 70 years.

Balentien deserves congratulations, but it has no relevance to discussions of Major League Baseball.

9/20/2013 12:13 PM
Posted by mfahie on 9/20/2013 7:51:00 AM (view original):
By the way, just because there is a huge statistical separation between a player and his contemporaries doesn't in any way mean that the player is better than (or even comparable to) a completely different set of players. It is precisely when competition is more uneven that outliers like that appear.

This is the main reason why there were so many .400 BA seasons in early baseball and we haven't seen one in over 70 years.

Balentien deserves congratulations, but it has no relevance to discussions of Major League Baseball.

Yep.

Check out the separation between the best high school hitters and the average of all high school players. It's enormous.

Everything I've seen suggests that Japan is a minor league equivalent. So, good job Balentien (and previously, Oh) you are (were) the AA equivalent record holder.
9/20/2013 12:54 PM
Posted by mfahie on 9/20/2013 7:51:00 AM (view original):
By the way, just because there is a huge statistical separation between a player and his contemporaries doesn't in any way mean that the player is better than (or even comparable to) a completely different set of players. It is precisely when competition is more uneven that outliers like that appear.

This is the main reason why there were so many .400 BA seasons in early baseball and we haven't seen one in over 70 years.

Balentien deserves congratulations, but it has no relevance to discussions of Major League Baseball.

will assume that u had no additional time on your hands to also forward your reply to the san francisco chronicle, and the san francisco giants baseball club, since this thread is also on the big-screen here, at this community college, we can forward this for u. however, the above article about the current world champion san francisco giants clearly shows that they are indeed involving themselves, through their scouts, in the art of major league baseball.

disagreeing whole-heartedly that this has nothing to do with major league baseball, we will agree that when a season finishes with a dozen batters hitting .400, or better, that distinguishing those batters from each other is often without that vast separation in achievements. we also sternly disagree that huge statistical differences between batters at the top, and mean averages for that league, somehow doesnt merit consideration. it is what wis here is all about, and how it works.

there is no sosa, bonds, gonzales, and mcgwire in the nippon pro baseball season just completed. balentien stands out alone in eye-popping clarity. yes, and soon to be coveted by many major league teams. not just because of his new and fresh numbers, but because of major league scouts who scour the world for pitchers, and five-tool players.

this isn't about congratulations. this is about a potentially large major league baseball contract. this is not orestes destrade finally getting a chance with the florida marlins. this parallels roger maris. he will be in a major league uniform. if he hits fifty homers, or forty homers, or thirty homers, or even twenty homers in america, then this guy will have a job here, and he will have his own fans all over the world, period.
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