All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Hall of Fame Size
1/14/2013 3:53 PM
While the fan's vote is just a popularity contest, the A/S bench is filled out by people who know baseball.

In his 15 year career, he made the A/S game 4 times.    He wasn't even the best 1B in his league for his entire career.
1/14/2013 4:15 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/14/2013 3:53:00 PM (view original):
While the fan's vote is just a popularity contest, the A/S bench is filled out by people who know baseball.

In his 15 year career, he made the A/S game 4 times.    He wasn't even the best 1B in his league for his entire career.
Eh, basic appeal to authority. We can look at Bagwell's numbers and see that he really was a great player. In 1998 he hit 304/424/557 with 34 home runs and didn't make the all star team. In 2000, he hit 310/424/615 with 47 home runs and didn't make the all star team.

All star appearances are a bad way to evaluate a career.
1/14/2013 4:21 PM
Because good players generally don't get named to all-star teams?
1/14/2013 4:42 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 1/14/2013 3:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 1/13/2013 5:34:00 PM (view original):
I'm sure there are plenty that don't belong...Rice, Dawson, Catfish Hunter, and Tony Perez are four modern day players that probably shouldn't be in. But there were ten players on the ballot THIS YEAR that do belong. And Morris wasn't one of them.
Agree on Rice, Dawson and Perez.

Hunter's a HOFer. 
I doubt you put a ton of stock in it, but Hunter comes in at #171 among SP in Jaffe's JAWS score. Only three SP currently in the Hall rank lower (Gomez, Haines, & Marquad) and they shouldn't be in either.

Some guys ahead of Hunter on the list: Jose Rijo (165), Jack Morris (168), Frank Viola (109), Brad Radke (134), Javier Vasquez (131), David Wells (126), Mark Buehrle (113), Mark Langston (98), Kevin Appier (73).
1/14/2013 4:44 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 1/14/2013 4:21:00 PM (view original):
Because good players generally don't get named to all-star teams?
No, because there are other things going on--managers' favorites, fan voting, team requirements. Better to just look at what actually happened in the field. Not mid-season popularity contests.

Unless you think that a guy hitting 310/424/615 with 47 home runs didn't have a very good year.
1/14/2013 5:02 PM
All Star appearances should matter on who gets into the Hall?

Bill Freehan should be writing his own induction speech now.
1/14/2013 5:48 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 1/13/2013 5:49:00 PM (view original):
Biggio
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Raines
Trammell
Schilling
Martinez
McGwire
Walker
I don't think I want Schilling in, there were too many other, better guys pitching at the same time.  And yes, he was good in the postseason, and I'll let Pettitte maybe slide in on that platform, but I'm not going to put at best the 2nd-best postseason pitcher of his generation into the Hall with a career 216-146 record.  127 ERA+ is really good, but in an era of high deviations it's not quite outstanding.  Schill can talk all high-and-mighty on steroid use, but the fact that he peaked in his mid- to late-30s is, at least, suspicious.  I'm not saying he used.  But I'm not going to vote him in on a "clean pitcher in a dirty era" platform, either.  At the end of the day, I just don't look at Schilling and think, "yeah, that's a HOF guy right there."  Plus he's just such a douchenozzle...

I could see an argument against Big Mac since all he did was hit homers and the steroids helped a lot with that.  OTOH, he does have the best career HR rate in history...  Edgar Martinez is also at least questionable for me.  When he played in the field he was bad, and for most of his career they didn't even bother trying.  His bat was great, but I understand the argument that if you don't play defense your bat needs to be truly special to get in.  Personally, with a .418 career OBP and 147 career OPS+, I think his bat is special enough to qualify.  Unfortunately, a number of the writers still seem as oblivious to the importance of OBP as so much of the general public, and 309 career HRs at DH don't exactly pop off the page.  Yeah, he was a great hitter, but you wouldn't mistake him for Frank Thomas or Jim Thome.  Again, I'd put him in, but I see the argument against him.  All the other guys on your list I think should go in, absolutely.
1/14/2013 6:23 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 1/14/2013 4:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 1/14/2013 4:21:00 PM (view original):
Because good players generally don't get named to all-star teams?
No, because there are other things going on--managers' favorites, fan voting, team requirements. Better to just look at what actually happened in the field. Not mid-season popularity contests.

Unless you think that a guy hitting 310/424/615 with 47 home runs didn't have a very good year.
I could argue, in Bag's career, that he was not the best NL 1B.   McGwire, Helton, Pujols come to mind.  I could argue that the Crime Dog and Galarraga were putting up similar years.    Bagwell just isn't a HOFer.    I don't care what Ron Jaworski says.
1/14/2013 6:27 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 1/14/2013 5:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 1/13/2013 5:49:00 PM (view original):
Biggio
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Raines
Trammell
Schilling
Martinez
McGwire
Walker
I don't think I want Schilling in, there were too many other, better guys pitching at the same time.  And yes, he was good in the postseason, and I'll let Pettitte maybe slide in on that platform, but I'm not going to put at best the 2nd-best postseason pitcher of his generation into the Hall with a career 216-146 record.  127 ERA+ is really good, but in an era of high deviations it's not quite outstanding.  Schill can talk all high-and-mighty on steroid use, but the fact that he peaked in his mid- to late-30s is, at least, suspicious.  I'm not saying he used.  But I'm not going to vote him in on a "clean pitcher in a dirty era" platform, either.  At the end of the day, I just don't look at Schilling and think, "yeah, that's a HOF guy right there."  Plus he's just such a douchenozzle...

I could see an argument against Big Mac since all he did was hit homers and the steroids helped a lot with that.  OTOH, he does have the best career HR rate in history...  Edgar Martinez is also at least questionable for me.  When he played in the field he was bad, and for most of his career they didn't even bother trying.  His bat was great, but I understand the argument that if you don't play defense your bat needs to be truly special to get in.  Personally, with a .418 career OBP and 147 career OPS+, I think his bat is special enough to qualify.  Unfortunately, a number of the writers still seem as oblivious to the importance of OBP as so much of the general public, and 309 career HRs at DH don't exactly pop off the page.  Yeah, he was a great hitter, but you wouldn't mistake him for Frank Thomas or Jim Thome.  Again, I'd put him in, but I see the argument against him.  All the other guys on your list I think should go in, absolutely.
I like Schilling more than most, it seems. I'd vote him in because I prefer a bigger hall. He compares favorably to Mussina and Glavine, two guys I think should get in, and it looks to me like he is better than the average HOF starting pitcher.
1/14/2013 6:36 PM
I think too many SPs are in the Hall.  Based on numbers maybe Schilling belongs, but he's just such an ***...  And character is a voting criterion.  I don't like the idea of holding out a guy like Bonds on character issues when he was the best hitters since Ruth.  I think it's shameful how low a proportion of the vote Ted Williams received.  But if it's close, like with a Schilling, I'm ok with using it to determine bumps and cuts.
1/14/2013 6:42 PM

Mussina?    Maybe everyone should get in.

BLUE RIBBONS FOR ALL!!!!!

1/14/2013 6:42 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/14/2013 6:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 1/14/2013 4:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 1/14/2013 4:21:00 PM (view original):
Because good players generally don't get named to all-star teams?
No, because there are other things going on--managers' favorites, fan voting, team requirements. Better to just look at what actually happened in the field. Not mid-season popularity contests.

Unless you think that a guy hitting 310/424/615 with 47 home runs didn't have a very good year.
I could argue, in Bag's career, that he was not the best NL 1B.   McGwire, Helton, Pujols come to mind.  I could argue that the Crime Dog and Galarraga were putting up similar years.    Bagwell just isn't a HOFer.    I don't care what Ron Jaworski says.
There is no requirement that you be the best at your position. 

Tom Glavine was never the best starting pitcher. Derek Jeter has been the second best shortstop on his own team several times. Both of those guys are no doubt Hall of Famers.

I love how you say things like "Crime Dog and Galarraga were putting up similar years" without actually doing any sort of comparison. Anyone can look at a list like this and see Bagwell at 6, McGriff at 28, and Galarraga at 67 and know that you are just talking out of your asshoIe again.
1/14/2013 7:09 PM
88-96 FM
94-98 AG

1/14/2013 7:19 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/14/2013 7:09:00 PM (view original):
88-96 FM
94-98 AG

You mean the 9 years that McGriff had an OPS+ of 147 and was receiving MVP votes and silver slugger awards and the five years that Galarraga hit 200 home runs and was receiving MVP votes?

You're right.

Jeff Bagwell was as good as the prime years of two other very good first basemen combined.
1/14/2013 9:16 PM
But how many ALL-STAR games did they go to!

Bill Freehan HALL OF FAMER!!!
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