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2/11/2013 2:44 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 2/11/2013 1:33:00 PM (view original):
I know you read my posts, no point in denying it.

Evidence of creation would equal evidence of God. There isn't any. All you have are challenges to evolution. That is not the same thing as evidence of creation or a young earth.
Actually evidence of creation would not necessarily equal evidence of God.  Quite possible some incredibly advanced alien species developed the ability to create life and did so when it created the life on our planet.  For all we know they did it as experiment to test certain things and are still monitoring our progress and/or tinkering right now (maybe they didn't like dinosaurs so they made them extinct).

The problem I see with creationism is that the evidence for it is more a lack of evidence for something else.  Take the Behe stuff, his argument is essentially that life is so complex it couldn't have formed on its own thus there had to be a creator.  There is no evidence for his conclusion other than it just can't have been formed the way we know evolution works.  Of course, maybe the way we now know evolution to work may not in fact be how evolution works.  Or maybe there was some sort of external factor (radiation, temperature, pressure, etc.) that created a unique situation that caused the evolution that was needed but that otherwise wouldn't make sense without that external factor and for which Behe isn't accounting.  Or maybe there was a creator.  Who the hell knows, but Behe just assumed there was a creator because he couldn't explain certain things (though other scientists have debunked some of what Behe was stating).  That by the way is pretty much what God has been used for throughout time.  We don't know why there is night and day, so it must have been God.  We don't know why everything falls down so it must have been God.  etc.  The absence of evidence does not mean there isn't evidence, it just means we haven't figured it out yet.  Maybe we never will because there is a creator or maybe 1000 years from now all of this will make perfect sense because we will have advanced enough to understand it.

2/11/2013 2:57 PM
Creationism goes way beyond the earth.  Creationism goes for the entire universe.  Who created the "incredibly advanced alien species"?
2/11/2013 3:09 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 2/11/2013 2:57:00 PM (view original):
Creationism goes way beyond the earth.  Creationism goes for the entire universe.  Who created the "incredibly advanced alien species"?
and that brings me back to my point from earlier, who created God? If everything must have a creator, than God must have been created by something?

That is why I believe the universe, life, etc. has always been there in some form or another.  Just like those that believe God did everything believe God has always been there.  There doesn't actually have to be a beginning an end.

2/11/2013 3:17 PM
I think Hawking has a theory that time didn't exist, as we understand it, before the Big Bang.  Because there was nothing to exist, there was no time.  Or something like that.  Hard concept for me to understand.
2/11/2013 3:29 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 2/11/2013 2:57:00 PM (view original):
Creationism goes way beyond the earth.  Creationism goes for the entire universe.  Who created the "incredibly advanced alien species"?
Chuck Norris.

Duh.
2/11/2013 4:09 PM
Posted by moranis on 2/11/2013 3:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 2/11/2013 2:57:00 PM (view original):
Creationism goes way beyond the earth.  Creationism goes for the entire universe.  Who created the "incredibly advanced alien species"?
and that brings me back to my point from earlier, who created God? If everything must have a creator, than God must have been created by something?

That is why I believe the universe, life, etc. has always been there in some form or another.  Just like those that believe God did everything believe God has always been there.  There doesn't actually have to be a beginning an end.

Always was. That's what I think. The universe, in one form or another, has always been there and will always be there.
2/12/2013 7:59 AM
The problem I see with creationism is that the evidence for it is more a lack of evidence for something else.

My understanding is that a lot of it is based upon simple logic. For example, I've heard this argument before:

If we were to visit a part of Mars we haven't yet seen before (with a robot or a human, it doesn't matter) and we were to see a large glass dome on the surface of Mars, we'd be intrigued for sure. Upon further inspection, inside this dome is not only breathable atmosphere, but it is teeming with all sorts of life very similar (or perhaps exactly the same) as life on Earth. As we investigate, we discover that there are various control mechanisms inside which can set the conditions to an amazingly wide variety of potential settings, but every single one is PERFECTLY  adjusted to allow the life inside the dome to exist, and if even one of those settings was off a small amount, there would be no life there.

What is the most logical conclusion as to how the dome and the life inside came to be there? Did the dome come about over a long period of time and create perfect conditions and the life inside simply evolved into what it was over more time? Or is it more logical to think an intelligent creator and designer of some sort created the dome and the conditions inside with the expressed purpose and intent that life could thrive there?
and that brings me back to my point from earlier, who created God? If everything must have a creator, than God must have been created by something?
Most (not all) creationists believe in some form of the kalam argument, even if they don't know it or what it means. It essentially states that "everything which begins to exist has a cause", and it's a logical premise accepted by many scientists (again, not all).

God is said to be outside the realms of space and time. Following the kalam argument, God did not have a beginning and therefore did not need to have a cause or creator.
Just like those that believe God did everything believe God has always been there.  There doesn't actually have to be a beginning an end.
The Big Bang Theory supports the idea the universe had a definitive beginning. If that is true (again, it's a theory, not a fact), then following the kalam argument, it also has a cause, and many believe that cause was God (or another intelligent creator).
2/12/2013 9:45 AM
None of that is evidence for creation.
2/12/2013 10:18 AM (edited)
Bis - the Big Bang Theory says (and  I am simplifying) that universe as we know it today was created from a large explosion 13.77 billion years ago.

Of course what isn't stated, is that something had to explode.  In other words, there was matter, it was in a different state, that matter did something which caused a large explosion which created the universe as we know it today. 

The Big Bang Theory does not state that before it there was nothing, there just wasn't the universe as we know it today.  In other words, there has always been matter in one form or another.

Who knows, maybe at some point in the future our universe collapses on itself and explodes creating a new universe.  Or maybe it just keeps expanding for ever.  Or maybe it reaches a limit, but doesn't collapse.  Or maybe it reaches a limit and doesn't collapse, but explodes.  Who knows.

2/12/2013 10:36 AM
The universe itself did not exist prior to the big bang - that is a fundamental concept of the theory. You can say that "something had to explode" and "matter did something which caused a large explosion".

I don't think matter exploded from essentially nothing into the early form of an entire universe for no reason. Something caused that to happen.

I find the idea of a creator deity to be at the least plausible as an explanation for the cause of the big bang, if such a theory is indeed the one to follow.

2/12/2013 11:25 AM
I think bis is partially right on this one. The big bang theory starts with nothing. Time and space didn't exist. Then a singularity formed and expanded. Don't ask me what a singularity is though, I have no clue and I have a really hard time wrapping my brain around the idea of something existing but not existing within space or time.

God didn't necessarily have to be involved and there certainly isn't any evidence of god's involvement.

Also, the big bang theory and evolution are not the same thing. We know very, very, very little about how the universe started. We know a lot about evolution.
2/12/2013 11:32 AM
There's also a idea that black holes are actually the keys to creating new universes.  In essence, a black hole takes in all matter near it, and "out the other end" is a big bang.  Meaning there could be many different universes.  Another idea that's hard for me to comprehend.  
2/12/2013 11:44 AM
I've heard of the black hole theory you mention, burnsy, which basically says what you state: A black hole sucks in everything and on the other side the condensed material builds to a point where there is a "big bang" and a universe is created.

It's an interesting idea and almost certainly one that will never be proven true. The information to even provide working evidence for such a theory would probably be difficult to obtain, if not impossible. Still, it is interesting.

To dumb it down: A black hole is eating space and every time it takes a dump a universe is born.

2/12/2013 12:13 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 2/12/2013 11:25:00 AM (view original):
I think bis is partially right on this one. The big bang theory starts with nothing. Time and space didn't exist. Then a singularity formed and expanded. Don't ask me what a singularity is though, I have no clue and I have a really hard time wrapping my brain around the idea of something existing but not existing within space or time.

God didn't necessarily have to be involved and there certainly isn't any evidence of god's involvement.

Also, the big bang theory and evolution are not the same thing. We know very, very, very little about how the universe started. We know a lot about evolution.
Time and space as we know them to exist didn't exist, that didn't mean there wasn't time or space, we just can't figure it out because our universe didn't exist.  As I said, that doesn't mean a different universe didn't exist nor something else didn't exist.  Maybe there was a prior universe that got so big it collapsed, everything just went together, eventually reached a critical mass and exploded causing our current universe.  Maybe that has gone on forever and will keep going on forever.  No one knows, but it is silly to think there wasn't anything to begin with.
2/12/2013 12:20 PM
I guess.

I really have no idea, only the little bit that I have read about the big bang. It makes my head hurt trying to imagine it.
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