All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > Not enough 3s in the game
3/16/2013 2:50 AM
Posted by colonels19 on 3/16/2013 1:10:00 AM (view original):
You're really milkin that one for all it's worth, eh?
Every drop.
3/16/2013 9:56 AM
Posted by emy1013 on 3/15/2013 11:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cburton23 on 3/15/2013 11:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 3/15/2013 10:16:00 PM (view original):
Definitely the decision of the coach.  It's very easy to have a team jack up a bunch of threes.  Give high distro to the guards, set 'em at a +2 three point setting and let it fly.  Voila, a ton of threes (and probably a loss to go along with it).
I think this is my point, but I didn't make it. If you jack up a tone of 3s you aren't going to win in this game on a regular basis, and by jack up I mean hit the RL average
Hey CB, didn't mean to come off as a smartass and I apologize if you took it that way.  All I was really trying to point out (in a short version story) is that coaches CAN shoot that many threes if they so choose, but the way that this game is set up that might not be the best of choices.  Can it work?  Absolutely, if you have the right personnel.  Can it work for just any average team?  Probably not.
Not at all emy. Just realized my original post didn't state it's purpose and you made it more clear. I was actually thanking you.
3/16/2013 10:28 AM
So gillespie, I don't have all the relevant info but there is only one team in RL that shoots less than 10 3s a game. Over half the teams shoot more than 18. In HD it's difficult to do a team stat search like that, but it seems that Sim coaches usually shoot around 20-21 a game. Most human coaches are under that, anecdotally I would say most humans are in the 12-14 range. I would also venture to guess there is way more than 1 team in HD taking under 10 a game
3/16/2013 11:11 AM
I think a lot of teams in HD choose to shoot too few threes
3/16/2013 1:36 PM
Posted by fd343ny on 3/16/2013 11:11:00 AM (view original):
I think a lot of teams in HD choose to shoot too few threes
I completely agree.  I don't think many HD coaches realize/comprehend the difference between shooting 3s and shooting 2s.  If you have a guy shooting 34% from 3, that is better than having him shoot 50% from 2.  
3/16/2013 1:43 PM
Posted by emy1013 on 3/16/2013 12:03:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gillispie on 3/15/2013 11:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cburton23 on 3/15/2013 11:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 3/15/2013 10:16:00 PM (view original):
Definitely the decision of the coach.  It's very easy to have a team jack up a bunch of threes.  Give high distro to the guards, set 'em at a +2 three point setting and let it fly.  Voila, a ton of threes (and probably a loss to go along with it).
I think this is my point, but I didn't make it. If you jack up a tone of 3s you aren't going to win in this game on a regular basis, and by jack up I mean hit the RL average
what is the real life average? like, you posted michigan state, but what is the 150-200th team or whatever the median is? i think the reality is in HD the low end teams shoot WAY less than in real life, but its not clear to me if the median is lower, and the high end, im not sure about that either.

also, i totally disagree, taking a bunch of 3s can be very effective. i dont think hitting the real life average, whatever that may be (1 in 3 to 1 in 4 shots?) is going over the line, you can be very efficient.

i agree with the earlier poster who suggested one needs to look at the fga too, to make sure its not just a case of fewer shots. would be interesting to know the 3pta % (not the 3ptm %, but % of fgs thant are 3s) compares to real like for median teams, high end teams (in terms of 3pta %), and low end teams. if HD doesnt match the stats of life, its a legitimate concern, but i think gathering some of that data is needed to make a strong case for things being out of whack.
As I said, with the right personnel, taking a lot of threes CAN be very effective (think Bingball).  No question, it can, and has, worked well enough to win NC's several times.  But his teams were set up specifically to play that way.

With just an average, randomly picked team, jacking up tons of threes is probably not going to be a very good idea.  Yes, you can win a few games here or there, may even break even, but for the majority of those teams, it's bye-bye, go home with another loss.  And I say that with "udder" confidence.
do you see the part where he said jack up 3s, and by jack up, i mean hit the RL average? thats what im really getting at - i dont consider shooting 1 in 3 or so 3s jacking them up, and i cant imagine real life is higher (but im not sure, hence the questions about the real life comparisons). yeah, bingball was certainly jacking up 3s to the extreme, but you dont need to play bingball to shoot a normal amount of 3s for real life teams, and tons of HD teams are successful shooting a good amount of 3s, like 1 in 3 or slightly less. 

i do agree with you that jacking up 3s (meaning a lot higher than the RL average) is generally not effective, but i disagree that shooting a normal (for RL, maybe slightly high in HD) amount of 3s is bad for teams.
3/16/2013 1:44 PM
Posted by tkimble on 3/16/2013 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by fd343ny on 3/16/2013 11:11:00 AM (view original):
I think a lot of teams in HD choose to shoot too few threes
I completely agree.  I don't think many HD coaches realize/comprehend the difference between shooting 3s and shooting 2s.  If you have a guy shooting 34% from 3, that is better than having him shoot 50% from 2.  
well, not exactly, you take more free throws off 2 point attempts. but i completely agree with the post you quoted to agree with :)
3/16/2013 1:56 PM
Posted by cburton23 on 3/16/2013 10:28:00 AM (view original):
So gillespie, I don't have all the relevant info but there is only one team in RL that shoots less than 10 3s a game. Over half the teams shoot more than 18. In HD it's difficult to do a team stat search like that, but it seems that Sim coaches usually shoot around 20-21 a game. Most human coaches are under that, anecdotally I would say most humans are in the 12-14 range. I would also venture to guess there is way more than 1 team in HD taking under 10 a game
18 3s sounds perfectly reasonable in HD. my teams generally shoot more 3s than sims, so if they are around 20-21, i dont think its at all "jacking up 3s" to take 18 (which sounds like the RL median).

the thing dragging down the HD average, should you compute it, is the bottom 20% or so of HD teams who take so few 3s... i mean you have at least 5-10% of teams taking almost 0 threes. thats unrealistic, but you can do unrealistic things in an incomplete basketball sim like HD (which any sim is going to be). so i would expect that to drag down the average, and also, id expect teams to be over the top in HD, our top 5% of teams probably take way more 3s than the top 5% of real life teams (by 3pta). 

but i think the real question is, are 3s reasonably effective, in balance with other scoring options, and i think the answer is YES. i consider being able to effectively shoot a lot of 3s (like 30-50% more than opponents) a major advantage. my south carolina team that just won was disadvantaged in many ways, i think the only thing that kept us in it was how effectively we shot 3s on such a high # of 3pta (we took 50% more than opponents). it wasnt near a bingball scenario (he would be in the 100% more 3s than opponents ballpark), but it was still a LOT higher than the real life average.

in reality, throughout most of the 5 years ive played HD, 3s have been overpowered, not underpowered, and this is probably the first thread ive seen in those 5.5 years where anyone questioned if 3s were possibly underpowered. i think they've been brought more in check with non 3pt scoring - before, the ONLY way to be super effective on offense was to take a bunch of 3s. now you have options, but to me, there is no doubt taking a lot of 3s remains a VERY effective option.
3/16/2013 2:47 PM
Posted by cburton23 on 3/15/2013 11:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 3/15/2013 10:16:00 PM (view original):
Definitely the decision of the coach.  It's very easy to have a team jack up a bunch of threes.  Give high distro to the guards, set 'em at a +2 three point setting and let it fly.  Voila, a ton of threes (and probably a loss to go along with it).
I think this is my point, but I didn't make it. If you jack up a tone of 3s you aren't going to win in this game on a regular basis, and by jack up I mean hit the RL average
This is 100% false.  In college basketball this season the median for 3PA/FGA is around 33%.  Two seasons ago I won a national championship and my team's 3PA/FGA was 33.9%.
3/17/2013 12:01 AM
i had a 99 pe player and 60 something and i set there 3 point at +2 and they both shot 10-15 apiece and the rest of the team shot that many too so i eneded up shooting 30-40 threes a game
3/17/2013 1:17 AM
Posted by mrg1037 on 3/16/2013 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cburton23 on 3/15/2013 11:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 3/15/2013 10:16:00 PM (view original):
Definitely the decision of the coach.  It's very easy to have a team jack up a bunch of threes.  Give high distro to the guards, set 'em at a +2 three point setting and let it fly.  Voila, a ton of threes (and probably a loss to go along with it).
I think this is my point, but I didn't make it. If you jack up a tone of 3s you aren't going to win in this game on a regular basis, and by jack up I mean hit the RL average
This is 100% false.  In college basketball this season the median for 3PA/FGA is around 33%.  Two seasons ago I won a national championship and my team's 3PA/FGA was 33.9%.
First of all, it's all relative what someone considers a "ton" of threes.  To me personally, a team that shoots a third of their shots from three point range is just about right.  Just about where it should be, so your team shooting 33.9% of their shots from three point range is certainly not, in my book, jacking up a lot of threes.  My personal opinion of what is a large number, or jacking up the threes, is more around 40-45, even 50%.  So the statement above is not "100% false".  In fact, as I just said, your percentage is just about EXACTLY what I would consider a "normal" percentage, so really, thanks for making my point for me.  And congrats on your NT.
3/17/2013 1:24 AM (edited)
Posted by emy1013 on 3/17/2013 1:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by mrg1037 on 3/16/2013 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cburton23 on 3/15/2013 11:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 3/15/2013 10:16:00 PM (view original):
Definitely the decision of the coach.  It's very easy to have a team jack up a bunch of threes.  Give high distro to the guards, set 'em at a +2 three point setting and let it fly.  Voila, a ton of threes (and probably a loss to go along with it).
I think this is my point, but I didn't make it. If you jack up a tone of 3s you aren't going to win in this game on a regular basis, and by jack up I mean hit the RL average
This is 100% false.  In college basketball this season the median for 3PA/FGA is around 33%.  Two seasons ago I won a national championship and my team's 3PA/FGA was 33.9%.
First of all, it's all relative what someone considers a "ton" of threes.  To me personally, a team that shoots a third of their shots from three point range is just about right.  Just about where it should be, so your team shooting 33.9% of their shots from three point range is certainly not, in my book, jacking up a lot of threes.  My personal opinion of what is a large number, or jacking up the threes, is more around 40-45, even 50%.  So the statement above is not "100% false".  In fact, as I just said, your percentage is just about EXACTLY what I would consider a "normal" percentage, so really, thanks for making my point for me.  And congrats on your NT.
emy i think we are all in agreement here... what mrg and myself are objecting to is the reference, "and by jack up i mean hit the RL average" (which is not even a statement you made) - we dont think taking 33% of 3s is jacking it up, and we think taking 33% 3s is quite effective in HD. it seems to me, you are agreeing with that, but disagreeing with someone saying the same thing, who is fundamentally agreeing with you (as you point out).
3/17/2013 1:36 AM (edited)
Posted by gillispie1 on 3/16/2013 1:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cburton23 on 3/16/2013 10:28:00 AM (view original):
So gillespie, I don't have all the relevant info but there is only one team in RL that shoots less than 10 3s a game. Over half the teams shoot more than 18. In HD it's difficult to do a team stat search like that, but it seems that Sim coaches usually shoot around 20-21 a game. Most human coaches are under that, anecdotally I would say most humans are in the 12-14 range. I would also venture to guess there is way more than 1 team in HD taking under 10 a game
18 3s sounds perfectly reasonable in HD. my teams generally shoot more 3s than sims, so if they are around 20-21, i dont think its at all "jacking up 3s" to take 18 (which sounds like the RL median).

the thing dragging down the HD average, should you compute it, is the bottom 20% or so of HD teams who take so few 3s... i mean you have at least 5-10% of teams taking almost 0 threes. thats unrealistic, but you can do unrealistic things in an incomplete basketball sim like HD (which any sim is going to be). so i would expect that to drag down the average, and also, id expect teams to be over the top in HD, our top 5% of teams probably take way more 3s than the top 5% of real life teams (by 3pta). 

but i think the real question is, are 3s reasonably effective, in balance with other scoring options, and i think the answer is YES. i consider being able to effectively shoot a lot of 3s (like 30-50% more than opponents) a major advantage. my south carolina team that just won was disadvantaged in many ways, i think the only thing that kept us in it was how effectively we shot 3s on such a high # of 3pta (we took 50% more than opponents). it wasnt near a bingball scenario (he would be in the 100% more 3s than opponents ballpark), but it was still a LOT higher than the real life average.

in reality, throughout most of the 5 years ive played HD, 3s have been overpowered, not underpowered, and this is probably the first thread ive seen in those 5.5 years where anyone questioned if 3s were possibly underpowered. i think they've been brought more in check with non 3pt scoring - before, the ONLY way to be super effective on offense was to take a bunch of 3s. now you have options, but to me, there is no doubt taking a lot of 3s remains a VERY effective option.
Gill, you're almost always right on the money with your stuff, but I've got to call BS on this one.  Your South Carolina team that just won was hardly "disadvantaged in many ways".  In fact, your South Carolina team that just won was probably the second best team in D1 Tark last season (behind Iowa State, and then, just maybe).  It may not have been up to your usual NT monster team standards, but to call that team "disadvantaged in many ways" is disingenuous at best.  You yourself admitted that it was better last season than the year before and if you'll recall, it took a miracle finish for me to beat you in THAT title game.  Teams don't make it to back-to-back title games in D1 Tark while being "disadvantaged in many ways", no matter how good the coach is.  That team was loaded, and to say that it wasn't in order to try to solidify your argument is really beneath you and something I never thought I'd see you do.  "Disadvantaged in many ways", ha, that's rich.  In fact, I seem to recall a couple of VERY good HD coaches (one a top 10 all-time HD coach, Grecianfox) posting on their Coaches Corner that they felt they had virtually NO CHANCE of beating that S. Carolina team.  Don't take that route Jeff, you're better than that.

I know you've got your opinion about that team, and I have mine, but I think if you ask all the coaches you walloped this season, they'll probably tend to agree more with not being disadvantaged (me) than being disadvantaged (you).  We'll just have to agree to disagree about this one.  :^)
3/17/2013 1:32 AM
Posted by coach_billyg on 3/17/2013 1:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 3/17/2013 1:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by mrg1037 on 3/16/2013 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cburton23 on 3/15/2013 11:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 3/15/2013 10:16:00 PM (view original):
Definitely the decision of the coach.  It's very easy to have a team jack up a bunch of threes.  Give high distro to the guards, set 'em at a +2 three point setting and let it fly.  Voila, a ton of threes (and probably a loss to go along with it).
I think this is my point, but I didn't make it. If you jack up a tone of 3s you aren't going to win in this game on a regular basis, and by jack up I mean hit the RL average
This is 100% false.  In college basketball this season the median for 3PA/FGA is around 33%.  Two seasons ago I won a national championship and my team's 3PA/FGA was 33.9%.
First of all, it's all relative what someone considers a "ton" of threes.  To me personally, a team that shoots a third of their shots from three point range is just about right.  Just about where it should be, so your team shooting 33.9% of their shots from three point range is certainly not, in my book, jacking up a lot of threes.  My personal opinion of what is a large number, or jacking up the threes, is more around 40-45, even 50%.  So the statement above is not "100% false".  In fact, as I just said, your percentage is just about EXACTLY what I would consider a "normal" percentage, so really, thanks for making my point for me.  And congrats on your NT.
emy i think we are all in agreement here... what mrg and myself are objecting to is the reference, "and by jack up i mean hit the RL average" (which is not even a statement you made) - we dont think taking 33% of 3s is jacking it up, and we think taking 33% 3s is quite effective in HD. it seems to me, you are agreeing with that, but disagreeing with someone saying the same thing, who is fundamentally agreeing with you (as you point out).
Okay, I'm good with that.  Somewhere along the way I must have confused myself and I guess I'm arguing against the very point I'm trying to make.  It happens, especially when you start getting old.  And I am.  Quickly.  Ouch, aches and pains everywhere.  For real.  Everywhere.  Even in places that I didn't know I had places.  Carry on.
3/17/2013 2:26 AM
Posted by emy1013 on 3/17/2013 1:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by mrg1037 on 3/16/2013 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cburton23 on 3/15/2013 11:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 3/15/2013 10:16:00 PM (view original):
Definitely the decision of the coach.  It's very easy to have a team jack up a bunch of threes.  Give high distro to the guards, set 'em at a +2 three point setting and let it fly.  Voila, a ton of threes (and probably a loss to go along with it).
I think this is my point, but I didn't make it. If you jack up a tone of 3s you aren't going to win in this game on a regular basis, and by jack up I mean hit the RL average
This is 100% false.  In college basketball this season the median for 3PA/FGA is around 33%.  Two seasons ago I won a national championship and my team's 3PA/FGA was 33.9%.
First of all, it's all relative what someone considers a "ton" of threes.  To me personally, a team that shoots a third of their shots from three point range is just about right.  Just about where it should be, so your team shooting 33.9% of their shots from three point range is certainly not, in my book, jacking up a lot of threes.  My personal opinion of what is a large number, or jacking up the threes, is more around 40-45, even 50%.  So the statement above is not "100% false".  In fact, as I just said, your percentage is just about EXACTLY what I would consider a "normal" percentage, so really, thanks for making my point for me.  And congrats on your NT.
Like billyg said, I'm arguing against your statement that a team can't win big while shooting a real life number of threes. That is false. I do think your overall point, which is that HD teams on average shoot less threes than real life teams, is probably true.
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