3/20/2013 11:05 PM

I may only be speaking for myself, but the passing game hasn't really improved at all over 2.0, in my opinion.  My biggest gripe with 2.0 was that unless you were running a very conservative offense, you wouldn't have the greatest success passing and even then, your QB would inevitably chuck a deep ball on 3'rd and 1 that would be intercepted (at least we can control that aspect now).  In 2.0, long or deep balls were almost always intercepted and if not, generally were incomplete.  I'm seeing the same thing here in 3.0 and it's disappointing to me.  In round three of the playoffs today, against a very good human coached team, all 127 pass attempts between both teams were attempted "behind the line of scrimmage"...  127 pass attempts, ALL behind the line of scrimmage.  That's pretty much all that works with any success and if that's going to be the case with the final version, then nothing has really changed.  My qb led Romero DIII with over 4600 yards passing, 81% completion, 35 TD, 9 ints, and 1200 yards rushing with 6 rushing TDs (more than all my RBs combined).  All of the passing was "Very Short" settings.  This is just no fun at all and though it may be my team (and yes, I realize Norbert just put out a notice that running was changed and I haven't had time to sim anything this evening), but my RBs can't generate ANYTHING on the ground.  I've simmed hundreds upon hundreds of games with every conceivable combination of all run, all pass, 50/50, inside, outside, vs. every defense in every setting.  Unless you're running Shottie 100% Pass, Deep vs. 52 100% Run, Short, the passing game seems broken.  Maybe my RBs just suck, but in 2.0, at the DIII level, RBs with SPD in the 50's and ELU in the 50's and 60's were pretty productive.  And a receiver with 65 speed, 69 hands and 64 elusiveness should be able to easily catch balls beyond short vs. db's and safeties with 50 speed and sub-40 technique, especially when facing a 34 or 44 set at run short coverage. 

I know some will chime in that they're having great success passing deep.  My question would be, are you having success against humans or sims.  In 17 games, I only played 5 sims (2 in the playoffs), so my observations are against human coached teams.  I left my pass settings at very short, primarily because it's the only thing that had any consistent success, but I was also curious if anyone could shut it down.  Only one coach was able to slow it down.  In the playoff game today, I tried a different approach defensively in the first half that seemed to somewhat work in test games, but failed in the actual game, so in the second half, I mirrored what he was doing with similar success.  In any event,  I'm REALLY trying to not write the game off just yet, in hopes that this new version will bring me back into the fold, but at this point the only difference I see are the added bells and whistles that allow you more control over what you want your team to do and who you want to do it...  but, if nothing in the passing game beyond "short" is successful and if the qb has more than twice the rushing yards the RB does, and if I'm running 100% blitz against an all pass team and get 0 sacks,  then I doubt that they'll pull me back in.  Seriously, I've ran test games with 100% blitz on every play and not one sack in 70+ plays?  I'll give it one more beta season, but if it's more of the same, unfortunately, it will be adios.

3/21/2013 12:39 AM
Remember - this is a beta test. The observations and results you outline are probably very accurate, but you have to realize that Norbert can't change everything all at once. The first season seemed to be more of getting the game bugs out. Coaches like mannowar are very important for the testing of this game, and we as coaches should keep publicizing the results to get them more to the point we feel are appropriate. It may take more than one beta season to get to the fine tuned tweaks we need to test. I have many items I would like to have addressed, but since Norbert is now reworking rushing - then passing I will hold them until the proper time. Hang in there mannowar, if the game can be made a logical and challenging hobby to play it will be worth it.
3/21/2013 12:41 AM
Norbert has said on multiple occasions that he knows the passing game needs more work.  He is working on the Running game first, then the passing game.  All your points are valid, but give it time.
3/21/2013 11:09 AM
Yes, the passing game including YAC is "under construction".  I have just finished the initial re-work of rushing plays and will be adjusting based on feedback and results.  I will probably work on passing first, which means pressure on the QB, sacks, picking targets, determining cover on the targets, and the actual pass and catch.  Once those are in and out to beta, I will work on the YAC and scramble yardage.  The YAC and scramble logic passes through the rushing logic I just redid but needs to be adjusted, which is why it has changed with the rushing update but not where it is expected to be.
3/21/2013 1:03 PM (edited)
I would say giving the beta only 2 seasons is a little short sighted. I would expect at least 4 seasons, at least, to get the game working with the kinks ironed out (including time saving ideas for game planning). I think this is a pretty big undertaking to expect near perfection in 2 months.

As for passing out of the proset (beyond Vsh), it is quite doable. I went 12-1 in brava vs all humans before I started really tinkering with playbooks (beyond my intial creation). I did not take advantage, at all, of the Vsh gimmick in that 1st playbook (up to the CC). Once the CC and playoffs started, then I started adding to the plays.

It's not that longer range passes didn't work. It's just that the Vsh passing game was just so successful that it made the others look poor.
3/21/2013 4:09 PM
Posted by hazing on 3/21/2013 1:03:00 PM (view original):
I would say giving the beta only 2 seasons is a little short sighted. I would expect at least 4 seasons, at least, to get the game working with the kinks ironed out (including time saving ideas for game planning). I think this is a pretty big undertaking to expect near perfection in 2 months.

As for passing out of the proset (beyond Vsh), it is quite doable. I went 12-1 in brava vs all humans before I started really tinkering with playbooks (beyond my intial creation). I did not take advantage, at all, of the Vsh gimmick in that 1st playbook (up to the CC). Once the CC and playoffs started, then I started adding to the plays.

It's not that longer range passes didn't work. It's just that the Vsh passing game was just so successful that it made the others look poor.
If you actually test it, all of passing doesn't work now that VSh is nerfed.  

Once you hit Med, your completion% falls of a cliff.  Add to that >1/20 balls are picked and about 1/15 times you're sacked, 1/15 times you scramble and 1/15 times  you throw it away.  That's >1/5 times you have a negative play (once the QB scramble issue is fixed).  The YPA is not nearly high enough at any distance to make passing the ball a risk worth taking. 

3/21/2013 4:14 PM
Once I realized VSh passing was very successful I then tried to build off of it to make it unstoppable.  In order to do this I sort of reverse engineered by trying every single defensive formation with every single setting.  What I discovered was that with the one offensive formation I was using there was one defensive formation and setting that completely shut it down.

Not once did I face the defensive formation in games that shut it down during the season.  Probably why my top receiver had 4000 yards receiving. Add in the fact that my kid was a top senior with a senior back up and me taking advantage of that lonely spot on the defensive side of the ball with some timely rushing using a completely different wr and you get some pretty remarkable results.  

It could of been stopped with the right defense though. My defense is crap and managed to shut it down.
3/21/2013 4:57 PM
Posted by hazing on 3/21/2013 1:03:00 PM (view original):
I would say giving the beta only 2 seasons is a little short sighted. I would expect at least 4 seasons, at least, to get the game working with the kinks ironed out (including time saving ideas for game planning). I think this is a pretty big undertaking to expect near perfection in 2 months.

As for passing out of the proset (beyond Vsh), it is quite doable. I went 12-1 in brava vs all humans before I started really tinkering with playbooks (beyond my intial creation). I did not take advantage, at all, of the Vsh gimmick in that 1st playbook (up to the CC). Once the CC and playoffs started, then I started adding to the plays.

It's not that longer range passes didn't work. It's just that the Vsh passing game was just so successful that it made the others look poor.
I don't think it is only going to be 2 seasons.  I was hoping to get most of the bugs out in first season as well as add a few new features for the settings, as well as tweak the play results, so season 2 would be smoother.  But after seeing some results from the testing and getting some feedback, I had to rebuild how I was doing a few things in the engine, which essentially moved the plans for season 1 to season 2.  I also still have to add in penalties, injuries and a few other things, plus review some of the odd calls we've seen at the end of the game in 2.0 that I wanted to try to improve.  Hopefully I can get some of that in during season 2 and the rest in during season 3.  Whenever all of the components are in and the results are looking acceptable, I want to run a couple seasons from start to end with hopefully only minor bug fixes and minor tweaking.  Depending on how they go, those last couple seasons might have some accelerated schedules.

And yes, passing is still in the rebuilding part of this, so results are nowhere near where I would expect them by the end.

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