3/26/2013 11:04 AM
Here is the perfect example of what I am talking about with a crap vsR and decent to great everything else who sucks large donkey balls...

whatifsports.com/HBD/Pages/Popups/PlayerProfile.aspx

I dont know how to link players properly in the forums, but here are this dudes numbers starting from control:
92 80 55 89 92 85 76 65 50 17
so a 55 vsR, everything but the 17 5th pitch (apart from vsR ofcourse) is good to great, and yet this guys career WHIP is 1.47 .287 OAV and his win/loss is 127/182.  And Ive seen these kind of numbers from pitchers that have crap vsR but really good nearly everything else. 

I dont know how Mercado has done as well as he apparently has, but all veterans here must know that there will always be variance in how pitchers will perform world to world, and my former pitcher whom I linked to above is proof that at least in this one world VSR is by far the most important rating.

And Crickett that was pretty funny about the sweater thing.  But about Slick, I know he isnt very good, Ottawa is in the middle of a re-build, and I didnt what my team to be the worst in the league while I re-load.  No doubt Im paying him too much for what he is, but FA was fierce this past couple seasons.
3/26/2013 11:45 AM
It's not a big mystery.   Mercado has a Vel/GB/P1/P2 grouping that averages over 90.    I keep his PC manageable(60-70) so in game fatigue is limited and he faces few PH that could hit his 45 VL.   He also pitches in front of a good D.    Pitching is complicated.   And that's why one shouldn't say "With that 59 VR, he's barely a BL pitcher."    It's not that simple.
3/26/2013 11:56 AM
For what it's worth, I'd guess Mercado's ERA raises over the course of his career.  

Greeny, being left-handed and having a righty split in the 50s isn't great.  But I would have guessed mid to high 4 ERA for Ortiz, so a 4.9 isn't completely out of line.  I'm also not sure if a 5th starter with that ERA is a bad thing.  He also had a couple ERAs in seasons that raised some eyebrows for me...you wonder if the defense was terrible or if he was overworked, etc.


3/26/2013 12:00 PM
Here's another guy I had in my world for a little while - I'd be content with him as a 5th starter, and he's worse ratings-wise than Ortiz.

whatifsports.com/HBD/Pages/Popups/PlayerProfile.aspx
3/26/2013 12:14 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/26/2013 11:45:00 AM (view original):
It's not a big mystery.   Mercado has a Vel/GB/P1/P2 grouping that averages over 90.    I keep his PC manageable(60-70) so in game fatigue is limited and he faces few PH that could hit his 45 VL.   He also pitches in front of a good D.    Pitching is complicated.   And that's why one shouldn't say "With that 59 VR, he's barely a BL pitcher."    It's not that simple.
Yah, he is a BL talent, but I wouldnt want to be depending on him thats for sure.  with a high pull either 4 or 5 Id be comfortable with that.  And in the playoffs obviously he would be your LRA or LRB even.
3/26/2013 12:21 PM
Its frustrating having an 81 overall rating guy like Ortiz and he turns out to be replacement level eh!  I had him on my team when I had only 2 or 3 seasons under my belt, and certainly expected a whole lot more out of him.  And he consistently blew up games as early as the 1st inning and all the way through to the 5 or so IP he had per appearance.  I made a decent trade to get rid of him a C with slightly below defense but with this batting line:
67 98 67 82 96  

That dude averaged 100 RBIs per season .290 AVG and .960 OPS.  Pretty happy with that situation!
3/26/2013 12:55 PM (edited)
Posted by greeny9 on 3/26/2013 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Here is the perfect example of what I am talking about with a crap vsR and decent to great everything else who sucks large donkey balls...

whatifsports.com/HBD/Pages/Popups/PlayerProfile.aspx

I dont know how to link players properly in the forums, but here are this dudes numbers starting from control:
92 80 55 89 92 85 76 65 50 17
so a 55 vsR, everything but the 17 5th pitch (apart from vsR ofcourse) is good to great, and yet this guys career WHIP is 1.47 .287 OAV and his win/loss is 127/182.  And Ive seen these kind of numbers from pitchers that have crap vsR but really good nearly everything else. 

I dont know how Mercado has done as well as he apparently has, but all veterans here must know that there will always be variance in how pitchers will perform world to world, and my former pitcher whom I linked to above is proof that at least in this one world VSR is by far the most important rating.

And Crickett that was pretty funny about the sweater thing.  But about Slick, I know he isnt very good, Ottawa is in the middle of a re-build, and I didnt what my team to be the worst in the league while I re-load.  No doubt Im paying him too much for what he is, but FA was fierce this past couple seasons.
Yeah I like the sweater thing.
 
I wasn't really saying Slick was bad. I have a lefty with a 52 VR who over 2200 IP has a WHIP of 1.38 and an ERA of 4.50 and that includes 2 horrible seasons early on. The last 5-6 seasons his whip has been between 1.16 and 1.40 with most being in the 1.25-1.35 range and his ERA about 4.00. While a high VR is desierable it is not the only rating to take into consideration. My guy is not an ace but those are viable numbers for a #3 through 5 depending on your team makeup.
3/26/2013 1:57 PM
Posted by greeny9 on 3/26/2013 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Here is the perfect example of what I am talking about with a crap vsR and decent to great everything else who sucks large donkey balls...

whatifsports.com/HBD/Pages/Popups/PlayerProfile.aspx

I dont know how to link players properly in the forums, but here are this dudes numbers starting from control:
92 80 55 89 92 85 76 65 50 17
so a 55 vsR, everything but the 17 5th pitch (apart from vsR ofcourse) is good to great, and yet this guys career WHIP is 1.47 .287 OAV and his win/loss is 127/182.  And Ive seen these kind of numbers from pitchers that have crap vsR but really good nearly everything else. 

I dont know how Mercado has done as well as he apparently has, but all veterans here must know that there will always be variance in how pitchers will perform world to world, and my former pitcher whom I linked to above is proof that at least in this one world VSR is by far the most important rating.

And Crickett that was pretty funny about the sweater thing.  But about Slick, I know he isnt very good, Ottawa is in the middle of a re-build, and I didnt what my team to be the worst in the league while I re-load.  No doubt Im paying him too much for what he is, but FA was fierce this past couple seasons.
Except he doesn't suck donkey balls, of any size.  An average pitcher, in the AL, spending essentially his whole career in BOS and DUR, would have an ERA (in an average world) of about 5.10.  The 5 years he was in DUR he was a .400 pitcher for a .420 team; in BOS he's been a .520 pitcher for a .530 team. 

He's average, which is what most of the guys in this thread are.  It's just hard to see because in his 5 years in DUR his teams sucked and the park killed pitchers.
3/26/2013 2:59 PM
Thanks for feedback.. Just called up Colon and we'll see how he fairs as my #5 guy in BOSTON in a hitter park heavy division.. Estrella will be up next season as my #4 SP..  My defense is below average but they should get heavy run support..
3/26/2013 3:37 PM
Posted by dedelman on 3/26/2013 1:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by greeny9 on 3/26/2013 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Here is the perfect example of what I am talking about with a crap vsR and decent to great everything else who sucks large donkey balls...

whatifsports.com/HBD/Pages/Popups/PlayerProfile.aspx

I dont know how to link players properly in the forums, but here are this dudes numbers starting from control:
92 80 55 89 92 85 76 65 50 17
so a 55 vsR, everything but the 17 5th pitch (apart from vsR ofcourse) is good to great, and yet this guys career WHIP is 1.47 .287 OAV and his win/loss is 127/182.  And Ive seen these kind of numbers from pitchers that have crap vsR but really good nearly everything else. 

I dont know how Mercado has done as well as he apparently has, but all veterans here must know that there will always be variance in how pitchers will perform world to world, and my former pitcher whom I linked to above is proof that at least in this one world VSR is by far the most important rating.

And Crickett that was pretty funny about the sweater thing.  But about Slick, I know he isnt very good, Ottawa is in the middle of a re-build, and I didnt what my team to be the worst in the league while I re-load.  No doubt Im paying him too much for what he is, but FA was fierce this past couple seasons.
Except he doesn't suck donkey balls, of any size.  An average pitcher, in the AL, spending essentially his whole career in BOS and DUR, would have an ERA (in an average world) of about 5.10.  The 5 years he was in DUR he was a .400 pitcher for a .420 team; in BOS he's been a .520 pitcher for a .530 team. 

He's average, which is what most of the guys in this thread are.  It's just hard to see because in his 5 years in DUR his teams sucked and the park killed pitchers.
he played in Ottawa for me for 3 full and 1 part season, Ottawa is a fully neutral park.  And my team was on a real upswing there, averaged 89 wins a season.  One of those seasons he had a 6.01 ERA and his whip was around 1.45 the whole time I had him.  Very replaceable numbers, and for a guy with only a few seasons under his belt kind of surprising given his 81 overall rating.  Im not saying he was the worst guy in the world, only point was that with Ortiz's only real wart being his vsR (every other number literally is from good to great) I would have expected more from him...  But apparently VsR is super important.  But possibly somewhat less important then the lesson I learnt from Ortiz.
3/26/2013 4:01 PM
Meh, I think you're misrepresenting how he pitched for you.

Two full, one partial:
81 IP, 1.38, 3.97
166. 1.64, 6.01
171, 1.44, 5.16

Team:
1.43, 4.93
1.46, 4.56
1.33, 4.27

He wasn't much below your team average pitching in front of an average D.
3/26/2013 4:07 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 3/26/2013 11:57:00 AM (view original):
For what it's worth, I'd guess Mercado's ERA raises over the course of his career.  

Greeny, being left-handed and having a righty split in the 50s isn't great.  But I would have guessed mid to high 4 ERA for Ortiz, so a 4.9 isn't completely out of line.  I'm also not sure if a 5th starter with that ERA is a bad thing.  He also had a couple ERAs in seasons that raised some eyebrows for me...you wonder if the defense was terrible or if he was overworked, etc.


I'd expect it to also.   He only got the call because I made a deal and needed someone to start some games.   His high DUR made him the best option.   But he pitched well so I gave him another season.   His BL stats mirros his MiL stats.   That doesn't seem right.    Nonetheless, he's a low split success story 250 innings into his BL career.
3/26/2013 5:07 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/26/2013 4:01:00 PM (view original):
Meh, I think you're misrepresenting how he pitched for you.

Two full, one partial:
81 IP, 1.38, 3.97
166. 1.64, 6.01
171, 1.44, 5.16

Team:
1.43, 4.93
1.46, 4.56
1.33, 4.27

He wasn't much below your team average pitching in front of an average D.
I had him in Dover too.  For some reason I moved to Dover for one season then moved back to Ottawa.  And he was replacement level in Dover too.

The point Ive been trying to make is that if you take a look at Ortiz's ratings only vsR is less then good.  All of his other ratings make you think he is going to be a above average starter.  Maybe even all star quality.  But that VsR has really hampered him.  Really.

Here are his important pitching ratings starting with control:
92 80 55 89 92 85 76 65 50 17
92 contact! those numbers are sick, the only wart period is the 55 vsR 17 5th pitch aint great, but its not nearly as bad as 55 vsR.

3/26/2013 5:21 PM
A recent DITR made me question the threshold for a "bad" pitch.   17 is horrible.  That's not the reason he's been average but his P5 is a detriment.   50 as a P4 might not be so good either. 
3/26/2013 10:59 PM
I think Estrella will be better than expected.  High control, velocity, gb/fb and and three solid pitches and 4th pitch of 65... Looks like a winner to me
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