All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Nolan Ryan: Thoroughly Average Good Pitcher
7/19/2013 11:38 AM
He dumb too.
7/19/2013 9:25 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/12/2013 9:30:00 AM (view original):
This is such a weird argument. Ryan is a no doubt Hall of Famer. But he isn't anywhere near the Clemens tier. He's top 30-40 all time.
You're comparing Ryan to a roid head?
7/19/2013 10:30 PM
Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Ryan doesn't really compare.
7/20/2013 4:13 PM
Posted by cobra on 7/19/2013 9:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 7/12/2013 9:30:00 AM (view original):
This is such a weird argument. Ryan is a no doubt Hall of Famer. But he isn't anywhere near the Clemens tier. He's top 30-40 all time.
You're comparing Ryan to a roid head?
And of course, there's no possible way that a guy who put up some of his best numbers (particularly his K rates) from age 40 to 44 in the late 80s and early 90s could have anything to do with steroids, right?
7/21/2013 7:47 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/19/2013 8:24:00 AM (view original):
Isn't part of that NOT giving up hits?
Yes. Part. Not all of it. I see this isn't getting through.

Try this.

You have to pitch a guy today. Season is on the line. Youre the manager. Theyre whispering in the press that if you lose this game, you lose your job. You get to pick between two rested pitchers.

One will give up fewer hits.
The other will give up fewer runs.

Which pitcher do you send to the mound?
7/22/2013 7:52 AM

Adjusted ERA+ s c a p y


1972 AL  128 (7th)
1973 AL  123 (6th)
1977 AL  141 (3rd)
1981 NL  195 (1st)
1987 NL  142 (1st)
1989 AL  124 (10th)
1991 AL  140 (6th)
7/23/2013 10:20 AM
Ryan may not be one of the "greatest" pitchers in MLB history, but he certainly is not average.
  • He pitched for 27 years!
  • 22 straight years with 20 or more games started!
  • 18 years with a ERA below 3.5 and only one above 4 (his last)
  • Ranked first in hits allowed 12 times (second another 3 times)
  • 5 times in top 5 for pitcher WAR and another 4 times in the top 10
Walks were his achilles heel, but his durability more than makes up for that shortfall.

Baseball reference has a category called JAWS that uses a pitchers best 7 years for WAR;  Ryan ranks 31st for starting pitchers in that category which is around where I would place him all-time.
7/23/2013 4:12 PM (edited)
Posted by bad_luck on 7/19/2013 10:30:00 PM (view original):
Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Ryan doesn't really compare.
Really? You can argue who's better but "doesn't really compare"

Really?
7/23/2013 4:11 PM
Posted by AlCheez on 7/20/2013 4:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cobra on 7/19/2013 9:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 7/12/2013 9:30:00 AM (view original):
This is such a weird argument. Ryan is a no doubt Hall of Famer. But he isn't anywhere near the Clemens tier. He's top 30-40 all time.
You're comparing Ryan to a roid head?
And of course, there's no possible way that a guy who put up some of his best numbers (particularly his K rates) from age 40 to 44 in the late 80s and early 90s could have anything to do with steroids, right?
Shoot, everybody in baseball is guilty until proven innocent, but you really think if you take away ages 40 thru 44, Ryan is not a hall of famer?


7/23/2013 4:39 PM
Posted by cobra on 7/23/2013 4:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 7/19/2013 10:30:00 PM (view original):
Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Ryan doesn't really compare.
Really? You can argue who's better but "doesn't really compare"

Really?
You asked if I was comparing Ryan to a "roid head."

I was but only in the sense that Ryan was not anywhere near as good as Clemens but still good enough to be a hall of famer.

Ryan threw 5386 innings with a 112 ERA+, 3.19 ERA, 1.247 Whip, 4.7 BB/9, & 9.5 K/9
Clemens threw 4916 innings with a 143 ERA+. 3.12 ERA, 1.173 Whip, 2.9 BB/9 & 8.6 K/9.

I know a lot of those numbers look similar, but the run scoring environment that Clemens pitched in from 1994 on was significantly different than the run scoring environment that Ryan faced for most of his career. Hence the huge difference in ERA+.
7/23/2013 5:00 PM
I'm with bad_luck on this one, I don't think Ryan really compares to Clemens at all.  I wouldn't say that there is any argument for Clemens as the greatest pitcher of all time.  There is no way in which I can compare him to Walter Johnson and arrive at the conclusion that Clemens is a better pitcher.  But he is in the argument for second-best, at least statistically.  I would tend to put Lefty Grove 2nd, but I can see Clemens in that spot...
7/23/2013 5:05 PM
I think Ryan compares quite well with "thoroughly average good pitchers".
7/23/2013 5:19 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/23/2013 5:05:00 PM (view original):
I think Ryan compares quite well with "thoroughly average good pitchers".
Do you put "thoroughly average good pitchers" in the Hall of Fame?
7/23/2013 5:21 PM
Maybe if they throw that many innings...
7/23/2013 5:24 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/23/2013 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/23/2013 5:05:00 PM (view original):
I think Ryan compares quite well with "thoroughly average good pitchers".
Do you put "thoroughly average good pitchers" in the Hall of Fame?
I said "quite well".    Most people would think that means he's better.    But, since you're a bit slow, I'll spell it out.

Ryan
is
better
than
a
throughly
average
good
pitcher.
Much
better.
He
compares
to
those
ranked
in
the
20s
for
all
time
rankings.
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