All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Hall of Fame weekend
7/30/2013 12:23 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/30/2013 11:31:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
I'm right about Lofton too.   But your JAWS has him above Raines and, if you admit Lofton isn't really a HOFer, you have to throw out your new metric or admit Raines doesn't belong in the HOFer.    And we know you're not going to do that.
It looks like Lofton compares very well to other Hall of Fame center fielders. I think he deserves consideration.

I'd certainly agree that JAWS isn't a be all end all metric. It's just a quick reference. Raines most certainly belongs, his case is much, much stronger than Lofton's. Raines was as valuable as Tony Gwynn.
LOL @ bad_luck for insisting "It looks like Lofton compares very well to other Hall of Fame center fielders. I think he deserves consideration."

Do you follow baseball?
7/30/2013 12:27 PM
What about Ichiro?  I think Mike has said he's not sure about Ichiro but do most think he should be in?  I know his defense helps and he'll get credit for his impact as an import from Japan, but voters are all going to cite his batting average and hit totals while ignoring players that got on base more often and also had more extra base hits (like Lofton and Raines), even those that also had great speed (also Lofton and Raines) or great defense.  Without intentional walks, Ichiro's career OBP will probably finish below .350.  Are infield singles that much better than walks or is it, in fact, his defense that makes the difference?
7/30/2013 12:32 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2013 12:04:00 PM (view original):

Feels like you're trying to suck me into a discussion about Lofton.   Won't happen.    The difference between Lofton and Brett Butler is neglibile.   I wouldn't argue Brett Butler for HOF for more than a sentence.   Lofton deserves three sentences and I've used them up. 

Butler
42.35 JAWS
35.22 WAR7
49.48 WAR

Williams
43.53 JAWS
37.54 WAR7
49.52 WAR

Lofton
55.58 JAWS
43.24 WAR7
68.12 WAR

One of these is massively better than the others.
7/30/2013 12:33 PM
The difference between Lofton and Butler is not negligible. It's huge.
7/30/2013 12:37 PM (edited)
Posted by tecwrg on 7/30/2013 12:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 7/30/2013 11:31:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
I'm right about Lofton too.   But your JAWS has him above Raines and, if you admit Lofton isn't really a HOFer, you have to throw out your new metric or admit Raines doesn't belong in the HOFer.    And we know you're not going to do that.
It looks like Lofton compares very well to other Hall of Fame center fielders. I think he deserves consideration.

I'd certainly agree that JAWS isn't a be all end all metric. It's just a quick reference. Raines most certainly belongs, his case is much, much stronger than Lofton's. Raines was as valuable as Tony Gwynn.
LOL @ bad_luck for insisting "It looks like Lofton compares very well to other Hall of Fame center fielders. I think he deserves consideration."

Do you follow baseball?
There are 17 center fielders in the Hall of Fame. By JAWS, Lofton was better than 11 of them.

EDIT: And I'm still not saying he's a slam dunk case. Just that it's foolish to automatically dismiss a guy better than 65% of the center fielders already in the hall.
7/30/2013 12:47 PM
You're trying to argue with Mike using WAR when he doesn't care much for that stat.  I'm also not sure he's better than most CFers in the HOF, regardless of what WAR says.
7/30/2013 12:53 PM
Mantle.

Mays.

DiMaggio.

And Kenny ******* Lofton.

LOL.
7/30/2013 12:55 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/30/2013 12:48:00 PM (view original):
You're trying to argue with Mike using WAR when he doesn't care much for that stat.  I'm also not sure he's better than most CFers in the HOF, regardless of what WAR says.
He used WAR also.
7/30/2013 12:57 PM
Where does Kenny Lofton rank with the other HOF CFers in terms of gWAR and qWAR27?
7/30/2013 1:04 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/30/2013 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Mantle.

Mays.

DiMaggio.

And Kenny ******* Lofton.

LOL.
By JAWS they rank:
Mays - HOF
Cobb - HOF
Speaker - HOF
Mantle - HOF
Griffey (not eligible yet)
DiMaggio - HOF
Snider - HOF
Lofton (off ballot)
Beltran (active)
Andruw Jones (not eligible yet)
Ashburn - HOF
Dawson - HOF
Hamilton - HOF
A handful of non-HOF's
Doby - HOF
Puckett - HOF
Lynn
Murphy
Bernie Williams
Carey - HOF
Averill - HOF
Roush - HOF
Combs - HOF
Wilson - HOF
Duffy - HOF

Maybe Lofton doesn't belong. Maybe he does. He isn't a Mays/Cobb level talent, which is OK, because that isn't the standard for inclusion. We shouldn't dismiss his case just because he doesn't feel like a hall of famer.
7/30/2013 1:26 PM
For ****'s sake.    Butler OPS+ 110, Lofton 107.

The difference between the two is negibile regardless of what Ron Jaworski claims.
7/30/2013 1:35 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/29/2013 7:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2013 7:18:00 PM (view original):
You like WAR.   Biggio was 13th in WAR7 amongst this season's candidates.   13th.    Raines was 11th.    Know who was 9th?  KennyfuckingLofton.  Who, IRC, is someone I compared Raines to back in the day.   Kenny Lofton-HOFer.  Does that sound right?
2 points:

1) This is an incredibly loaded ballot. Bonds and Clemens alone are both top 10 all time players. In 2012, Raines was 6th in WAR7 (and WAR and JAWS). If you use WAR (instead of cherry picking the best 7 years) Raines moves up to 8th. Ahead of Lofton.

2) Maybe you are selling Lofton short. His JAWS score puts him at 8th on this ballot. Ahead of Raines, Palmeiro, Biggio, McGwire, Piazza, and Sosa. He is significantly ahead of Bernie Williams, Don Mattingly, and Jack Morris (who comes in at a whopping 20th).

Doesn't some of this have to be common sense?  Who of Raines, Palmeiro, Biggio, McGwire, Piazza and Sosa would you have traded to get Kenny Lofton on your team?  If the answer is "none,"  or even "one," the stat is a sh*tty way to compare players.
7/30/2013 1:37 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2013 1:26:00 PM (view original):
For ****'s sake.    Butler OPS+ 110, Lofton 107.

The difference between the two is negibile regardless of what Ron Jaworski claims.
OPS+ ignores 67% of the game. ****** stat.
7/30/2013 1:45 PM
Jaworski.  Haha.

Common sense does have to come into account.  JAWS ignores more than half of Lofton's career, parts of which were kinda ******.  Does it take into effect dWAR?  Because I do have issues with that stat.  Beltran is below Lofton? Seriously?
7/30/2013 1:49 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/30/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):
Jaworski.  Haha.

Common sense does have to come into account.  JAWS ignores more than half of Lofton's career, parts of which were kinda ******.  Does it take into effect dWAR?  Because I do have issues with that stat.  Beltran is below Lofton? Seriously?
JAWS combines WAR7 and WAR. It does include defense and a lot of Lofton's value comes from his defense. I agree that there are issues with dWAR. I wouldn't have voted for Lofton in 2013 because there are 10 players I'd put on the ballot ahead of him. But I don't think he falls into the Bernie Williams/Steve Finley near automatic "no vote" category.
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