10/1/2013 2:07 PM
I brought this up a few months ago in a thread, but it got lost in the weeds when talking about multiple teams in 1 world / cheating / etc. so I wanted to revisit the topic.  One of my issues with recruiting is the fact that at D3, FSS is extremely expensive relative to your budget, and considering D3 coaches (probably) don't even look at D1 recruits in the states they scout, that money partially goes to waste.  I threw out the idea of tiered FSS, where you could purchase states by division.

All amounts for FSS are pre-discount.

As it stands now, FSS for a state is roughly $6.50 a recruit, unless of course the state barely has any recruits since the minimum cost/state is $200. I wanted to run the numbers given the fact that Wooden is starting recruiting tonight and just generated. For the top 5 states by # of recruits, here is the breakdown:

NY (242 total, FSS cost $1,573): D1 - 81 (33%), D2 - 41 (17%), D3 - 120 (50%)
TX (232 total, FSS cost $1,495): D1 - 109 (47%), D2 - 68 (29%), D3 - 55 (24%)
CA (224 total, FSS cost $1,443): D1 - 116 (52%), D2 - 46 (21%), D3 - 62 (28%)
PA (203 total, FSS cost $1,313): D1 - 38 (19%), D2 - 48 (24%), D3 - 117 (58%)
NC (166 total, FSS cost $1,066): D1 - 57 (34%), D2 - 66 (40%), D3 - 43 (26%)

I also did FL, because well its a big state with a lot of schools in that area
FL (133 total, FSS cost $858): D1 - 69 (52%), D2 - 42 (32%), D3 - 22 (17%)

Using the tiered system (D1 = $15/recruit, D2 = $5/recruit, D3 = $3/recruit...I started with these as that's the breakdown of scholarship money), here are the impacts by state:

Negative amounts indicate higher cost under tiered than current

NY
  new cost current cost savings
D1 1215 1573 358
D1/D2 1420 1573 153
D2/D3 565 1573 1008
all 1780 1573 -207

TX
  new cost current cost savings
D1 1635 1495 -140
D1/D2 1975 1495 -480
D2/D3 505 1495 990
all 2140 1495 -645

CA
  new cost current cost savings
D1 1740 1443 -297
D1/D2 1970 1443 -527
D2/D3 416 1443 1027
all 2156 1443 -713

PA
  new cost current cost savings
D1 570 1313 743
D1/D2 810 1313 503
D2/D3 591 1313 722
all 1161 1313 152

NC
  new cost current cost savings
D1 855 1066 211
D1/D2 1185 1066 -119
D2/D3 459 1066 607
all 1314 1066 -248

FL
  new cost current cost savings
D1 1035 1313 278
D1/D2 1245 1313 68
D2/D3 276 1313 1037
all 1311 1313 2

Overall, it seems like there would be significant savings at the D3 level (by purchasing D2 & D3), mixed results at the D2 level (either by purchasing D2 & D1, or all 3), and slight savings at D1 level (by purchasing just D1 or D1/D2). Dropdowns would be added once they drop (i.e. if you are D3 and you only purchase D3, any D2 dropdowns will show up when they drop without you doing anything extra). Not to drudge this topic back up, but I also think this would help with the "multiple teams in one world" debate somewhat. If a coach has a D1 and a D3 team, the admins would know if they were purchasing D3 FSS with their D1 team, which wouldn't make logical sense unless they were trying to game the system. Sorry for the long-winded post, but this really intrigues me and I'd like to get thoughts from more experienced coaches/posters.
10/1/2013 11:30 PM
The problem I see is that not every team sees the same recruits, so a lower prestige team will see fewer D3 recruits, so this formula would make it even harder for these teams to compete because they'd have to pay more for a larger pool of D2 players to pull down from vs. an A+ team, which would see a lot of D3 recruits and likely fewer D2's. Also, how do we handle recruits that eventually drop? Does scouting that player suddenly become cheaper once he moves D2 to D3? (or D1 to D2)
10/2/2013 11:16 AM
Posted by rednu on 10/1/2013 11:30:00 PM (view original):
The problem I see is that not every team sees the same recruits, so a lower prestige team will see fewer D3 recruits, so this formula would make it even harder for these teams to compete because they'd have to pay more for a larger pool of D2 players to pull down from vs. an A+ team, which would see a lot of D3 recruits and likely fewer D2's. Also, how do we handle recruits that eventually drop? Does scouting that player suddenly become cheaper once he moves D2 to D3? (or D1 to D2)
rednu, so the two issues I took from your reply are:
#1 - Lower prestige teams don't see as many current-division recruits as higher prestige teams, therefore the cost of FSS would be greater to these coaches.
#2 - Changes in values of players that drop

#1 - This is a very good point, and one that is tough to work out using a tiered system. I'd be curious to know from someone in Wooden what they see. The numbers of recruits at what class in the original post was what I could see at an A- prestige. I'd be interested in seeing the difference between that and say, a C-, or an A+.  I would imagine the difference between A+ and C- would be significant, but just how many recruits would that be?  Team X (C-) sees 25 fewer D3 recruits than Team Y (A+)? 50? 100?  Depending on how many states you look at. Basically, this would mean that a D2 C- team would see, let's say 50 fewer D2 recruits as an A+ team. The C- team would see them as D1, meaning that they would be paying $500 (50 recruits x $10 difference in D1/D2 price) more for scouting D1/D2 than the A+ team.

#2 - I was working under the assumption that most coaches would scout their division and the division above them for any pulldowns. Therefore, if you coach D3 and you also scouted D2, and a player initially listed at D2 drops to D3, you would have overpaid by $2 to see his potentials early.
10/2/2013 2:21 PM
Good job on the math and I like the idea. The price seems reasonable too, maybe the D1 package could be discounted for the D2 coach... like, only $3/recruit for both D2 and D1 for D2 coaches, whereas all packages would be $5/player for the D1 coach-- and D1 would just be unable to buy a D3 package (and D3 would be unable to buy D1).
10/2/2013 2:34 PM
The low budget and high scouting costs are two reasons I'm abandoning D3 after my sub expires, moving to D1 and D2 exclusively.  I understand that in the real world, a lot of Div III schools don't even have an athletic budget at all, but this isn't the real world.  It's supposed to be a game with rules that give everyone a chance to "level up".  

As rednu points out, bringing prestige into it by making the cost dependent on the recruit's listed division is just an unnecessary complication.  I'd love to see total FSS report costs scaled to division.  The simple way to do it would be to just use a flat, across-the-board cost per recruit/per state as it is now, but discounted for D3. 

Having had a couple of D2 teams, I don't know that they need help, but D3 is painful if you have ambitions of getting usable players.  Not everyone coaches in an elite conference.



10/2/2013 3:29 PM
I'm trying to get some numbers on the number of A+ recruits from a conference mate...I was wondering, if an A+ school sees let's say 10% more D3 recruits than a C- school (they would show up as D2 for the C- school), does the A+ school also see more D1 recruits as D2...meaning some recruits that the C- school would see as D1, would show up as D2 recruits for the A+ school.  This would offset some of the cost differences mentioned in the previous posts.
10/4/2013 9:32 PM
I'm new to the game...
Was wondering, if an owner is successful in D3, is it possible for him to get a job offer directly to D1 (say, a low prestige D1)? Or do you have to have a cup of coffee in D2 for a certain amount of years?
Thanks.
The forums are great. Ton of information from you guys. Lot to learn about the game.
10/5/2013 5:44 PM
I think the solution to different prestiges is to make a all players appear the same initially to all schools in the same level. Let the prestige determine how fast they drop down or are able to be pulled down. Its not that hard of a fix. Programming on the other hand might be more difficult than just that, but on paper the solution is simple.

As far as after recruiting starts and the price of players that have dropped down, I dont think it would be an issue to just have it be they are more expensive until they drop. How many guys is that in total? If you recruit 2-3 major states, lets say 20-25 players total drop down during recruiting (this includes the bad ones, not just the ones you add to your board). At the price you gave of $5 for DII and $3 for DIII, thats a $2 difference per player. So you might spend $50 more. If that $50 is breaking the bank, then odds are it wasnt going to matter. From DI to DII $15 and DII at $5, thats $10 per person. Thats a little more significant, but still, just a little less than a home visit at $250.

The concerns are not that hard of a fix. DII loses about 1 home visit, and DIII gets a better budget. I think thats not that bad.
10/7/2013 3:12 PM
Posted by npb7768 on 10/4/2013 9:34:00 PM (view original):
I'm new to the game...
Was wondering, if an owner is successful in D3, is it possible for him to get a job offer directly to D1 (say, a low prestige D1)? Or do you have to have a cup of coffee in D2 for a certain amount of years?
Thanks.
The forums are great. Ton of information from you guys. Lot to learn about the game.
Moving from D3 directly to D1 takes a number of seasons featuring deep NT runs.  It is easier to go to D2 first, where a moderate level of success will earn you a chance at D1 after three or four seasons.

I started a long time ago so some of the information I am giving here could be out of date, but as a rule I was able to move from D3 to D2 after just a season or two of posting decent D3 records.  Then it took me about four seasons in D2 to be qualified for low-level D1 programs.  The timetable may be a bit quicker now than it was when I first started playing, but that's what I recall from the good old days.

10/7/2013 5:42 PM
One could take a look at the actual records of current low DI coaches to get a current sense of how this tends to go.  Click on the coaches name and see the history of schools and results.

It has been too long since I was in D2 for my experience to be useful.
10/7/2013 6:13 PM
I think I qualified for D1 after about 8 pretty good seasons at d3.

The fastest way to do it is get to d2 (1 season in d3 making the NT) and then 4-5 seasons at d2 (with at least 2 or so NT wins).

D1 is a totally different animal though, I highly reccomend learning the ropes at the lower levels first.   It probably took me 30+ seasons to understand the game beyond a simple level.
10/7/2013 10:52 PM
you don't have to make the NT to move up in 1 season from d3-d2...a few seasons ago I saw a conference-mate move up after 1 sub .500 season in d3...it was a world that this guy had never played before so he had no prior experience in that world...i remember commenting on the CC that the standards had really relaxed if 1 sub .500 season could get you promoted
10/7/2013 10:55 PM
I just found the one I am talking about...the coaches record was 6-21 and he was eligible (and went) to D2
10/10/2013 10:01 PM
I don't like it.  It takes away realism from the game.  D3 schools are on a small budget in real life and for the most part recruit regionally.  The limited budget in D3 and the expense of FSS make this more necessary.  A D3 school should not be able to scout more than a few states without tearing through their budget. 

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